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Postby Rick » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:42 am

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Postby Rick » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:28 am

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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Andrew » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:45 pm

Hi Rick,

I watched the clip. I was following along well enough until about 8 minutes in, then Mooji got into what I consider to be "anti-intellectual" and "enlightenment as experience" stuff which I dont care for.

From the 8 minute mark to the end it was a bit painful to watch. Back in 2013, I attended a Non Duality study group which was based on Nisargadatta and stuff like that. It was a very long 2.5 hours because even though I had not been involved with the traditional teachings that long, I could see that a good teacher could have resolved the members' doubts far more efficiently than having a bunch of guys sit around and share their opinions about what they thought the text meant. The clip reminded me of that very dull and unproductive evening..lol..

Ironically, I had never heard of Mooji until I heard James' satsangs. James has said that he & Mooji get along just fine and he's a nice enough guy and all that. He was a student of Papaji and, as far as I know, there isnt the type of "teacher training" that one gets in traditional vedanta. As such, the experiential language and lack of precise definitions is inherent in this kind of material.

I dont think its bullshitting so much as it is not having the best tools for the job. Kind of like using a screwdriver that only kinda/sorta fits the screw. Bullshitting would be more like Ramesh Balsakar who did the "enlightened people are beyond good and evil so its ok for me to bed my students" which is BS. There was a lot that Mooji said that makes sense in terms of the scripture only it is so labored and drawn out.

Whether the guy at the mic got the point or not is hard to say. Good luck to him!

Andrew
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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Stan » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:36 pm

Hi Rick,

What do you think about this video of Mooji? He spends twenty minutes explaining the self but I don't think the guy in the audience gets it.


I`m not surprised that the guy didn`t `get it`. in fact he seemed to get pretty frustrated and cheesed of with the answers he was getting and i`m not surprised.
Like Andrew, when I got to about 8 minutes in, I got pretty turned off with the `anti- intellectual` approach Mooji was taking the satsang in. The occasional shots of some of the `bliss bunnies` kind of put the lid on the `atmosphere` for me.

Mooji took the guy as far as his saying that awareness was the ultimate perceiver but then said that that was not enough.
Apart from the fact that awareness isn`t a perceiver as it doesn`t have sense organs to perceive with, he left the guy stranded in the end. Mooji`s intermixing of the perceiver and knower words were totally confused. when he waded in with the experiential language, I knew the guy`s fate was sealed and you could see it on his face.
Personally, I think Mooji`s a very poor teacher and seems to use his students doubts to cover his own limitations as a teacher. I find it pretty distasteful actually.
I believe that the problem lies with the fact that he doesn`t have a proper teaching rather than being deliberatelly unscrupulous. my opinion.

There was no other way that I could have known about the nature of the self other than via the intellect.
So, is Mooji bullshitting everyone or is he just a really poor teacher?


I think he`s a really poor teacher because having led the guy to say that the mind is not the self, nor is an intellectual appreciation of awareness, he failed to teach him how to stand in awareness AS awareness. this would have been the self knowledge that Mooji couldn`t lead him to. he failed to teach him the connection between mind / the individual and awareness. To me, it was all about Mooji and not the teaching. He may well know he is awareness but it`s indirect knowledge.

Vedanta has a complete teaching and is briefly summed up by the mahavakya... YOU ARE THAT.
The knower of the self is the apparent individual person—the relative knower or effectivelly, the mind. Though the non-dual self cannot be known as an object, its limitless nature is apprehended in a sattvic, intellect.... a mind that is free of disturbing vasanas, that extrovert its attention and prevent it from “seeing” that awareness is the substrate, of all the objective phenomena, that appear within the scope of its `perception`.

There was no other way that I could have known about the nature of the self other than via the intellect.


This is the link that Mooji didn`t have so as to resolve the guy`s doubts. he left him in a painful place.
When the intellect is exposed to the teachings of Vedanta through which the implied meaning of the words of scripture is revealed, it is led beyond the limitations of the subject-object/knower-known split to the realization of the essential identity of these two seemingly different entities as awareness.

Mooji and the rest of the Neo guys just don`t have a complete teaching. with them you just `get it` or you don`t. good luck to that.
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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Andrew » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:23 am

Bliss bunnies :lol:

I introduced my friends to "fluffy bunnies" and "bliss ninnies" also.

When Mooji said that you couldnt be satisfied with an intellectual concept, I thought "why not?". Telling the student "tat tvam asi" is an intellectual concept, the satisfaction comes from understanding it properly. If the student has doubt, it is the teacher's job to help clear that up. Otherwise it amounts to blaming the student "you dont get it" or blaming scripture "it is intellectual".

I would say "he needs to do his guru job properly" but if one doesnt know what that is, as far as he's concerned, he is 'helping'.

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Postby Rick » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:32 am

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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Gw1 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:38 pm

Hey y'all,

It starts off with the photo which says "Silent Retreat." Maybe that may have been more of a beneficial format. The questioner seemed more frustrated after hearing an 'answer' then prior to. In Ted Schmidts book, (116) He says "The infinite regression of "I"s to which this train of thinking ultimately leads is a logical absurdity and thus fails to provide a satisfactory answer to our question."
That's what the man will leave primarily with, rather than an answer.

Gerard
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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Stan » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:32 am

Hi Gerard,

A big welcome to the forum to you. it`s nice to have you here. :-)
You said ...
In Ted Schmidts book, (116) He says "The infinite regression of "I"s to which this train of thinking ultimately leads is a logical absurdity and thus fails to provide a satisfactory answer to our question."
That's what the man will leave primarily with, rather than an answer.


I`m not actually all that sure that Mooji would welcome getting grilled in public by a competent enquirer who knows he/she is the self. I`d pay good money to see that !

Still, it`s all Isvara giving the seekers a python like squeeze till they get desperate for release. one big learning curve. thank God that there is an end to it and vedanta provides the means.
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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Anja » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:54 am

Stan wrote:Hi Gerard,

A big welcome to the forum to you. it`s nice to have you here. :-)
You said ...
In Ted Schmidts book, (116) He says "The infinite regression of "I"s to which this train of thinking ultimately leads is a logical absurdity and thus fails to provide a satisfactory answer to our question."
That's what the man will leave primarily with, rather than an answer.


I`m not actually all that sure that Mooji would welcome getting grilled in public by a competent enquirer who knows he/she is the self. I`d pay good money to see that !

Still, it`s all Isvara giving the seekers a python like squeeze till they get desperate for release. one big learning curve. thank God that there is an end to it and vedanta provides the means.



Not that I'm particularly interested in exposing Mooji as what (I think) he is, but if that would be neccessary, requested by Truth, James asking ME to do it for the sake of keeping the sampradaya's seperated, for the sake of accuracy, I would do it.

Else I prefer to expose other kinds of ..... you name it, elsewhere.

Thanks for having me.

Peaceful Aum namah Shivaya Mantra Complete!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq-CKdT6IG4
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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Anja » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:16 am

Rick wrote:Bliss bunnies :lol:

They didn't seem that blissed out to me, but you wouldnt if all you were there for is an emotional spike. :D

Thanks for your responses. I like Mooji, he seems like he genuinely cares about others and wants,sometimes badly, to make a difference in peoples lives.

The description/pointers he offers is very confusing and I think the guy at the mic was justified at feeling cheesed off at not being able to get some insight.

This satsang clip just illustrates the need for a proper Vedanta teaching, because there is so much ignorance to get rid of, I personally don't need more confusion adding to the existing confusion. Satsangs of this nature don't seem to offer much other than some soothing of emotional problems, but underneath it all I still get a sense in general of certiain degrees emotional neediness in maybe some of the people who go to these events. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but as James likes to say - there is nothing right with it either (for the purpose of enlightenment).

How would you categorize this type of satsang situation according to James' "5 levels of devotion"? I'm seeing it as just 2/3 informal devotion moving slightly into formal devotion. Probably still very "me and my problems" based and not really interested in understanding the guna problem. There appears to be some attachments to "personal" enlightenment, maybe some ideas about mass social change?? and all the usual stuff that comes along with that kind of revolutionary mindset. It's one step up from religion, but not that far removed. One set of beliefs for another and not much real work going on.

So satsang with Mooji scoring a very mediocre 2.5 out of 5!

Your comments are appreciated :)



If you value Mooji as some saint, while at the same time hyping someone like the so called hugging-saint Amma, taking a stand for Mooji, as being.....you name it, I'm not interested in taking on the task to expose both of them, with one stroke, one sentence, one single statement, I think would destroy the both of them. For the sake of Truth only, of course.

By the way, I met that hugging "saint" personally in Berlin some years ago, AFTER I met James, and I voluntiered for a weekend, doing so called seva in her "space". I think I got the message, so far. Which means: I'm not interested in her...what ever her message may be, besides making money with what she deals in.

If you want me to comment on her, and her position on what I consider as true real sampradaya's, who are not mere money-making-mashines, just let me know.

Shivo ham!
Anja
 

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Postby Rick » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:50 am

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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Anja » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:00 am

Rick wrote:
Anja wrote:
I'm not interested in taking on the task to expose both of them, with one stroke, one sentence, one single statement, I think would destroy the both of them. For the sake of Truth only, of course.

...

If you want me to comment on her, and her position on what I consider as true real sampradaya's, who are not mere money-making-mashines, just let me know.

Shivo ham!


Yes please Anja :D



I haven't eatin' in the best fallaffel-maker diner for month in a row, due to my problems with a provisorium I got in my right-front-tooth.

Can that issue be post-phoned for about....let's say....a few more month, untill I'm I able to bite propperly again?

Bob Marley - Stir It Up [Live 1973]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51pxEO1HX3A
Anja
 

Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Anja » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:29 pm

By the way, I just got kicked out (maybe just for now?) of the Sam Harris forum. And yes, I'm pround of that being the case and therefore I announce it here. That being said, regarding his (Sam Harris') take on free-speech, his agenda as being "scientifically" backed up while expressing his mere opinion and such nonsense.

Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!

His fans can't stand Truth. Expressed on a daily basis, exposing his strategy, his tactics as what they are: The "work" of a simple and down-right demagogue.

Shivo ham!
Anja
 

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Postby Rick » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:28 pm

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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Anja » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:31 pm

Since I'm not a teacher in any way shape or form, just a writer with strong opinions which I consider as well informed, I have no interest in being seen as enlightened or otherwise spiritually elevated. But I consider James as someone who is well eductated in scriptures and he has studied under Swami Chinmayananda a reasonable long time. So I think he's qualified to teach what he is teaching, in my eyes. He's authorised to do so by the lineage and authority of his guru, Swami Chinmayananda, I guess.

I don't think the same goes for the Gangaji's, Mooji's and Andrew Cohens in the same way. That's why I think they are just ..... you name it. And on a personal note, I think they are far to cuddly and fluffy in their public appearences to be taken seriously. And Cohen is exposed already by many of his former followers as just some jerk who thought he knows some stuff better than others. All of them abuse their followers for different reasons, but one thing they do have in common, I think is: They are narcissists with a superiourity-complex. (At least that's what my inner Sigmund Freud tells me.)

Harris is of a whole different caliber. He's a public intellectual, a best-selling auther, with books on the New York Times bestseller-list. Propagating (ultra) right-wing neo-con agendas, justifying torture and going to war, because "good intentions" are what drives unfortunate bad outcomes of such policies, but are seen, by him, as mistakes made along the way by those who actually fight the one and only good and righteous war, us-America and the rest of the west.

Compared to Harris, all the Gangaji's and Mooji's and the like are just some minor figures who can easily be ignored if one really digs deeper. Harris is dangerous in what he has become because he is famous not just in some (ultra) spiritual circles. They don't play in the same league as some new-age guru's do, who like to lecture people with a tendency to be too devot to authority figures. They are no Deepak Chopra's.

Compared to Harris, Papaji's spiritual offspring is just like "baby-snakes" while Harris is a full blown crocodile. And Chopra is something in between.

Dat's my take on it.

Cheers!
Anja
 

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Postby Rick » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:13 pm

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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby georgschiller » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:01 am

Code: Select all
Since I'm not a teacher in any way shape or form, just a writer with strong opinions which I consider as well informed


Hi Anja, can you explain what a "well informed opinions" are?
I am simply asking because I have no idea what a well informed opinion is.
I mean, the more I learn about a particular subject the more I see that I cannot hold any particular opinion without seeing its limitations.
I am much less likely to hold a particular opinion because there are so many different views on any subject.
This - from my experience - is just the nature of Maya. Everything is interconnected and not possible to put into folders of good or bad. If at all, it is kind of shades of grey, or like a rainbow :lol:
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Re: Enlightened ?

Postby Anja » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:12 am

Hi George,
all I can tell is that, for example, dentists don't have "well informed opinions" about teeth. They have scientifically validated knowledge about teeth. And they can prove it by being able to fix rotten teeth or replace them with false teeth so one can bite again.

A well informed opinion, compared to an un-informed one, is: Having gained knowledge regarding the subject one has an opinion about. Having sufficient information, having prossessed them by having contemplated the input of such information and then comming up with an output, an opinion about a particular subject, can be called an informed opinion. But it still is just an opinion, not truth. The dentist deals in truth by being able to fix teeth...all the time. No opinion involved in that. Just facts.

Hi Rick,
why even bother to be alive when you don't care about the circumstance you find yourself in? Why not just stop breathing and being done with being alive?

Why putting the garbage in the garbage-can and not just throwing it out of the window or leaving it where ever you drop it?

Why using a toilet?

I think we, as humans, can not not make certain choises. And my choise is to prove, as good as I can, that I'm not in the same boat with someone like Sam Harris. It's my thing, kinda sorta. I just don't accept intellectual dishonesty from a well known so called intellectual like him. That's all.

You can bully me as long as you like, if you can not help it, but don't pretend you're my friend if you do so. That's all I'm asking for...from someone like Sam Harris and his devotees.

"...and here is Tom with the weather..." (Bill Hicks)
Anja
 

Re: Enlightened ?

Postby georgschiller » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:37 am

Hi Anja,
I see what you mean.
Yes, the dentist works based on objective/empirical knowledge.
Opinions I would say are more based on subjective/interpretative knowledge.

I personally like to suspend judgement regarding most worldly issues. This does not mean that I am a nihilist, it just means to take things easily 8-)

Nice chatting with you :)

Have a great day :) Georg :)
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Postby Rick » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:43 am

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