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Chapter V: Awareness, the Self.

Discriminating self and not self

I Am Not My Story, I Am Ordinary Awareness, The Most Obvious Thing, A Second Awareness, I Do Not Die , I Am a Partless Whole, I Am Not a Doer, I Am Not Unique in Any Way, No Need to Be Pure and Holy, I Don’t Change, I Can’t Become More Aware, I Reveal Myself to Myself, The Real and the Apparently Real.

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Discriminating self and not self

Postby Tom » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:30 pm

Wondering what peoples thoughts are on this

When you discriminate between self and not self as a practice, surely everything that can possibly perceived is not self because we cannot directly perceive the self as we are the self?

If all in made of consciousness, as in everything that is perceived and experienced is made of consciousness then instead of discriminating self and not self could it not be as good to say all is the self?

:)
Tom
 
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Re: Discriminating self and not self

Postby Vinay » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:34 pm

surely everything that can possibly perceived is not self because we cannot directly perceive the self as we are the self?


I believe that's an incorrect statement. You are always perceiving the Self, as everything in nothing but the Self. The problem happens because we are perceiving the world through the subjective lens of our likes and dislikes.

instead of discriminating self and not self could it not be as good to say all is the self?


You have to do both. Technically the Vedantic terms are Satya (independent reality, real) and Mithya (dependent reality, apparently real). The Self is Satya, whereas whatever we perceive is Mithya. Just as pot (Mithya) cannot exist with clay (Satya), the world (Mithya) cannot exist without the Self (Satya).

So discriminating between Satya-Mithya leads us to the conclusion:

1) I am not the doer/enjoyer.
2) I am the Self.

Once this is clear, then you can say everything is the Self/Isvara. Then you wouldn't identify with Mithya even when you say everything is the Self, and I am the Self..


Vinay
 
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Re: Discriminating self and not self

Postby Stan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:14 am

Hi Tom,

You asked for thoughts on what you wrote so, here are some of mine.

When you discriminate between self and not self as a practice, surely everything that can possibly perceived is not self because we cannot directly perceive the self as we are the self?


First of all, who is doing this discriminating ? It isn`t the self because as reality is non-dual, the self sees `no other`. As there is `no other`, the self doesn`t discriminate anything from itself but it does know itself. Also, the self most certainly doesn`t have a "practice" nor is it a "perceiver". It has no senses or mind complex. ( subtle body ). that belongs to the Individual or Jiva.

The Jiva is in Maya / duality and so it can only see objects whilst under the spell of Ignorance and as you said, the self cannot be directly perceived. there are no senses with which to perceive the self.
From the Jiva`s point of view, it is bound by Maya`s conditioning and the only way out is through self-knowledge.

In the early stages of self inquiry, it`s very important to be able to negate all objects . It is a necessary qualification. Why ? because there is nothing to be gained from the objects. they are all of neutral value and not worth chasing after. The joy is not in the object, it is in "you" ...awareness.

Discriminating the self from the not-self is done to break down the identification with the mind/ body sense complex and any objective phenomena arising `within` it and `allied` to it.
This is covered by the teaching on the gunas and the Isvara-Jiva identity. These are essential teachings for Moksha.
Discriminating the self from the not-self is Moksha.

You then said....

If all in made of consciousness, as in everything that is perceived and experienced is made of consciousness then instead of discriminating self and not self could it not be as good to say all is the self?


This is well and good BUT.... Until my knowledge is hard and fast in that `I am the self`, I think that the not-self is Real !

How do you get to the point where you can say "All is made of consciousness" ? after all, you could get a parrot trained to speak that. It wouldn`t know what it meant though, would it ? If it is not just to be intellectual knowledge or information, but self-knowledge, there needs to be a means of knowledge that leads to the understanding that one is the self alone.

Yes, you AS awareness could say that "all is the self". All apparent objects are the self from the standpoint of the self BUT, the self is not the all/ objects. It needs no "All" or objects as it is the knower of the "all". All objects. It exists before, during and after them and is not changed or modified by them.

As the self never changes, it is said to be real. The `all` or objects, are always subject to change and so are not said to be real. they exist but only have an apparent existence. confusion between the real and the unreal, self and `not self` is the cause of suffering. you can`t superimpose the real onto the not real.

The primary method of removing Ignorance / confusion is through discrimination of the Real from the Apparently Real. saying "all is the self" cannot remove ignorance.
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Stan
 
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Re: Discriminating self and not self

Postby Tom » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:06 am

Hi Stan

Sorry I had not noticed this reply to my post! Thank you for such an in depth reply.
Would you say the self could be described as a quality? as its certainly not an object that can be perceived.

Nice to see someone else in the UK here :)
Tom
 
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Re: Discriminating self and not self

Postby Stan » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:30 am

Hi Tom,

Would you say the self could be described as a quality? as its certainly not an object that can be perceived.


In a word Tom, i`d say No. Bearing in mind that the self, awareness,...is YOU, would you say that you are a quality ? Not really. and aren`t all "qualities" known ? Objects ? What sort of qualities did you have in mind ? Qualities of what ? You as the self are witness to all qualities. A thing and it`s quality exist in mithya...the apparently real. They are not ever present and unchanging. Only the self, you, is ever present and unchanging and hence real.
You can`t superimpose the real onto the unreal..satya onto mithya.

If the self were a "quality", there would have to be something else, some object, standing behind it that it referred to but, that which stands behind everything, that everything depends on, IS the self. This is a confusion between the self and objects appearing in the self. Everything always points to the real when inquired into. Always look for what is ever present and doesn`t change. Does this refer to "qualities" ? No.
As you doubtless know, constantly discriminating the real from the unreal is moksha.

Yes, it`s nice to see someone else from the UK here. At this stage of the forum`s development, we don`t know where participants are located. Having said that, `welshtyke` sounds pretty suspect to me ! if we see a `britgit` then I reckon we`ve cracked it. :)

As regards being notified of new posts, if you go to the bottom left of the topics page and hit on the subscribe link, and you will get notifications in your email inbox. You have to do this for every new topic. to unsubscribe, just click on the `unsubscribe topic` link.
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Stan
 
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Re: Discriminating self and not self

Postby Anja » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:01 pm

Tom wrote:Wondering what peoples thoughts are on this

When you discriminate between self and not self as a practice, surely everything that can possibly perceived is not self because we cannot directly perceive the self as we are the self?

If all in made of consciousness, as in everything that is perceived and experienced is made of consciousness then instead of discriminating self and not self could it not be as good to say all is the self?

:)


The logical problem with saying, "all is Consciousness" is this: IF all is Consciousness, then all elements of Consciouness are supposed to be conscious. But as we all know, that is not the case. If all forms, all jivas would be conscious of the fact that they are the Atman also, there would be no violence, no brutality, no war, whatsoever. But that isn't the case. So...there indeed isn't something that can be called Consciousness, that indeed is conscious, which we, as forms, are part of. That is just another attempt from what I call the theocratic conspiracy to fool us to believe that we are a part of what they, the ..... you name it, call: We're all one.

No! We are NOT all one. We are not-two. And that sounds like a minor, unimportant distinction but it is a big gap. It is as big as the universe, the difference between "we are one" and "we are not two".

It's like this: I may be a part of a tiger, the mouth or the tongue, but I'm not a part of a pig, whatsoever. Although I'm a part of some sort of an animal. Know what I mean?

In other words, I might be the mouth of a tiger, but I'm NOT the mouth of a sheep, although I'm the mouth of an animal. Therefore, I'm not seperated from being a tiger, but I'm not a part of any other kind of animal.

THAT is what I call (qualified) non-duality.
Anja
 


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