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Board index Chapter X: The Ropes

Chapter X: The Ropes

Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Direct and Indirect Cause, No Quarrel with Experience, The Flow, Stuckness and No Movement, Doership, The Assimilation of Experience, Rajas and the Assimilation of Experience, Tamas and the Assimilation of Experience, Upside to the Gunas, Sattva and the Assimilation of Experience, How the Ropes Bind, The Psychological Mechanism, Karma Is Unassimilated Experience, The Pain Body, How to Cultivate Sattva, Sattva plus Vedanta, Meditation , Respect Isvara

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Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby georgschiller » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:54 pm

There are more and more pointers indicating that this Earth and its climate is at the edge of a major turning point. The facts of an abrupt change of our climate are dominant, oil and other important resources are running out, every day there are about 200.000 new people on earth (deaths already substracted), every day about 200 species go extinct, wildfires are going crazy at the Westcoast of the USA, the ice at the North Pole might disappear already this September or in the following year and the El Nino this year might become the biggest ever recorded. Predicaments concerning the economy, financial system, nuclear reactors and environmental destruction not even mentioned.
There are many pulic speakers, such as Prof.Guy McPherson (Univ.Arizona), Dr. Paul Becksmith (Univ.Ottawa), Prof. Peter Wadhams (Univ.Cambridge, UK), Prof.Hansen (Univ.Columbia; Director Goddard Institute of Space Studies NASA) and many promiment climate scientiests who bring forward the message that within a few years (2-10 years) human survival on this planet might not be possible anymore due to a rapid changing climate.

For me personally this knowledge has given me great motivation to study Vedanta. At the same time it is very funny for me to know that this "reality" is an illusion and at the same time knowing that this illusion might disappear very soon indeed.

What does it mean to know both: That this is all an illusion and humans go extinct in the near term? Is there some deeper meaning to find out? Of course not, it all appears in awareness by the power of Maya. There is nothing substantial in this world. This world, as well as the Jiva will dissappear. Nothing special about it. Or is there something else to know? What is Vedanta's position on a possible near-term human extinction? Is it ok to say that it is possibly just the result of excessive Rajas and Tamas collected since the dawn of agricultural societies?

https://youtu.be/5SeiT7Twp3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXj6W4gysow
Looking forward to some replies!! :)
Last edited by georgschiller on Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby georgschiller » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:44 pm

Well, based on what I have learned from Vedanta: It is true to say that there is nothing substantial in this world and that Jivas will disappear. But Vedanta rather would say that this world and the Jiva only apparently exist. They are not true fundamentally. They are Isvara/God. Duality (this world, jiva, etc.) only exists because of Isvara. Isvara is not permament. It changes also. It is only there because of me - awareness. In fact there is only awareness, nothing else. There is only an apparent world by the power of Maya. So, there is really nothing to loose if this world, this Jiva, or anything else changes or disappears because all is awareness anyways. A truly liberating view!
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby Sundari » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:11 pm

Object Knowledge not Truth

Georg: Abrupt Climate Change:

Since you made some references towards the loss of topsoil due to agriculture and also a few remarks on climate change in your article on the politics and morality of food, I wanted to share the following information (from the shiningworld forum) with you:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25

I wrote the short information about abrupt climate change in July 2015 (that's about 3-4 months after I started to study Vedanta). In general, it sounds quite radical, even downright unbelievable. But for the inquirer it can be a great impetus to fully submerge oneself into studying Vedanta. After all, what is more important than self-inquiry? Especially with the information in the background that society as we know it might not survive for long.

But to forego any misinterpretation: I am not sharing this information so that it becomes widely known among the shiningworld community. I have no interest in that! And I even would definitely discourage it (if you had a hard time bringing the message forward that "life eats life" then just imagine bringing the message forward that society might disappear within the next few years!! It would create much distress and even hatred among most people as can be seen by the example that many climate scientists in the USA applied officialy for asylum in Germany, Danemark, UK, Sweden, etc.)

Sundari: I did not have trouble bringing the ‘life eats life’ message to anyone. Some people may have had trouble with it, but that is their problem, not mine, as this is not my view or belief. It is just a statement of fact and irrefutably true about how the field of existence operates. Your views on climate change are not based on irrefutable knowledge and cannot be conflated with this statement, and certainly not with self knowledge.

Georg: I am just sharing it with you because I personally found it truly LIBERATING that our society is not going to survive for many more decades (apparently it is possible to disappear any time soon due to certain feedback loops within nature -> Permafrost, disappearing Northpole Ice, growing economies, etc.).

Sundari: This is just opinion Georg, nothing more. Scientists are not Isvara and they never take Isvara into account because they believe the apparent reality is real.

Georg: In any case, life changes and disappears! This is not particular new information for us Vedantins! After all, we know that this reality exists but it is not true! We know that life as we know it changes all the time. Life as such could disappear anytime (it is all up to Isvara). It is nothing shocking to us! Only to our Jivas who have made plans for the upcoming years :)

Sundari: Thank you for sharing your article and views. We are pleased that you are taking such an interest in the forum, but I must say this kind of article is not really what we have in mind to be discussed on the forum. It seems to have a fear mongering slant to it which is the antithesis of self knowledge. Fear stands for false evidence appearing real. But you are right that fear may be useful to beginners to turn the mind inwards and to self inquiry. For an inquirer starting out on the path, fear can produce great bhakti for Isvara and for finding the truth, but ultimately fear is self defeating and immobilizing unless it is directed toward Isvara.

Georg: Both - Vedanta and Abrupt Climate Change - share certain similarities in my understanding:
1. Both seems unbelievable at the first moment.
2. Both are only accessible for certain qualified seekers.
3. And both can be truly liberating in the end :)

I would love to hear your opinion on the stuff above. But it is not absolutely necessary. The intent of this email is to show you my gratitude for your article. To support you emotionally :) to support your good work so you keep up with doing similar things!
Again: It is not my intent to spread the information about abrupt climate change; even if it appears to the contrary :)

Sundari: Who would be the ones qualified for this kind of knowledge—and what independent body of knowledge is there to decide on the necessary qualifications? You cannot compare whoever they would be to those qualified for self knowledge, nor are there any valid qualifications other than those set down by the scripture for moksa. Although the field of existence or apparent reality is run by natural laws which cannot be contravened without consequence, it is impossible to say with any certainty how those consequences play out. Only Isvara knows.

Vedanta (self knowledge/satya) is about moksa, freedom from the apparent reality. Self knowledge is that which stands independently of all opinions and beliefs and that which is always true and always good—in all situations and circumstances. This is why you can trust it. Object knowledge must be true to the object to be knowledge—and even then, that does not automatically qualify it as knowledge or Truth, with a capitol ‘T’. Knowledge of climate change is object knowledge (mithya) which may be knowledge and it may not be. It may be your belief that the future is apocalyptic but that does not make it Truth, no matter how much ‘scientific proof’ you have for your views.

The issue with your questions is not to confuse satya with mithya. Vedanta is satya, the world is mithya. They are not the same and exist in different orders of reality. As for climate change, one has to remember (as you well know) that the field of existence is Isvara; no one is doing anything. It’s just macrocosmic ignorance and it will play out how it plays out. As drastic as things may appear to be on the surface, no one can say what Isvara has in mind for this little leela. It is our belief that society will somehow adapt, that it is not ‘too late for change’ and that life will go on, until it does not anymore. If it is in a few decades or a few billion years from now, what does it matter to awareness? This is all a movie, after all. Karma yoga as always is the only sane approach for the jiva, self realised or not. Self knowledge allows us to live without fear of ANY outcome and to embrace the beauty of life. A doomsday approach is not helpful and is deeply tamasic; there have always been plenty of those ideas in the apparent reality and they are pointless.

There are some real changes being made, even though it appears to be very late, who knows for sure? This could just be the beginning of a completely new phase of life for this creation. We think the show will go on!


Love from us

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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby hannamarin » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:53 pm

thanks for this information! I convince myself that happiness is inside us! link shows main climat problems and what consequances they bring!
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby georgschiller » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:07 pm

Hi Hanna Marin,

thanks for your post. It gave me the opportunity to re-visit a ONE YEAR old post of mine. It is quite funny to look back and see how self-inquiry has changed my life upside down :lol:

Are you new to Vedanta? Or how did you find out about this particular post?

Cheers, Georg :)
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby Jiva-John » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:50 am

Even though Georg is probably much wiser now ;) I do appreciate his concern as it's all too easy for us jivas to get whipped up into a frenzy of fear given all that's currently going on in the world--destruction to the environment, terrorism, demagogues, racism...Just watch CNN for an hour and you won't even want to open your front door. I see my neighbors helping to build a society of fear with their hate, conspiracy theories and gun collections. I don't know what's more scary, the news or my neighbors' reactions to the news. However, I do support Sundari's assessment that in spite of all the experts predicting doom and gloom, that nobody really knows what's going to happen except Isvara. Why? For the same reason nobody can consistently predict how the stock market will perform--there are too many variables involved, including many unseen and unknown. What I find most difficult to live with is not the apparent dangers lurking in the dark, but the ignorance of others. The more knowledgeable you become, the more tamasic people you see. That is, until you remember it’s all Isvara, it’s all a dreamscape. Everything is the way it’s supposed to be and couldn’t be otherwise.
Last edited by Jiva-John on Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby georgschiller » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:15 pm

Hi John,

yes, it requires a lot of faith/Bhakti to overcome the negative flood of information. It is natural for the mind to be obsessive, which is why it is important to have something the mind can focus on!! :o

P.s. It is a Vasana, a deep ingrained vasana to look for dramas and negative things in the world. That is why we love gossip, tv, news, etc.. Vedanta offers a beautiful remedy = knowledge about the essence of your self!
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby JamesRam » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:50 am

Here is a little video which touches on the subject of good, evil and destruction:

https://youtu.be/iGCzI5Ol6XA
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby Jiva-John » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:39 pm

Thanks for the video, James and Georg. Here are my take-aways:

- This reality is neither good or bad. You can’t have good without evil. It’s just the nature of maya or duality.

- Reality is value neutral. Is it evil for a lion to kill a buffalo? Is it evil that a tsunami kills thousands of people?

- Good and evil are just relative to a person's point of view and conditioning. One person might see an object as good, while the other sees it as evil. Evil is just that which contradicts your likes and dislikes.

- It’s a morally ambiguous problem with good and evil working side-by-side. This is why they say life isn’t black or white but shades of grey.

- Your perception changes when you know who you are, because you see yourself as what comes prior to the world and duality. More important than discriminating good from evil is discriminating yourself from good and evil. You are what comes before good and evil.

- It’s all just the play of duality in this apparent darkness…don’t worry!
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Re: Abrupt Climate Change & Nonduality

Postby Arlindo Nagar » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:51 am

Sundari has pointed out that this subject is almost invariably born out of fear and therefore not relevant or recommended for inquirers on self-knowledge. She also explained that nobody can read Isvara’s mind. Jiva’s knowledge and vision is too narrow and subjective.

One more point I wish to make is that people often think of Mithya in terms of good and bad, evolution-involution, creation-destruction… but these notions are only the result of Jiva’s subjective interpretation of one simple objective fact; the nature of Mithya is constant change – nothing remains the same from one moment to the other. Change is a fact in this apparent reality, and it is not good or bad - evolution-involution are only concepts; subjective projections based one Jiva’s desires and fears.
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