Timor: My sadhana consists of nondual Vedanta.
Sundari: Good. But have you followed our instructions on the website? Have you read The Essence of Enlightenment, particularly chapter 2, Experience and Knowledge? Who is your teacher, or have you been reading Vedanta without being properly taught? It seems to me that you have not followed the proper method, which is clearly explained in Ram’s books, How to Attain Enlightenment and The Essence of Enlightenment. Did you read that satsang I sent you on self-inquiry?
Timor: I know that there is no separate Self. What you said is based on theory. But in my experience, my confusion still remains. Please tell me in experience level. I will wait for your reply.
Sundari: I am not talking theory, Timor. Vedanta is not theory in practice because it is the truth with a capital ‘T” about you, the Self. If you cannot take the word of the scripture as superior to your own limited knowledge, you need to start at the beginning by developing the qualifications for self-inquiry. You are identified with the experiencing entity and do not understand the difference between Satya and mithya. If you did you would not be confused.
Most people who somehow find their way to Vedanta have explored many paths and suffered a great deal. I have attached a satsang for you to read on what self-inquiry entails, which also covers the qualifications required. These are not arbitrary requirements. I cannot help you develop them, but I can help you understand what they are. Vedanta is a radical teaching; it is scientific, and it works to end suffering if you are qualified, dedicated to self-inquiry, and properly taught by a qualified teacher.
The most important fact to grasp is that Vedanta is not about experience, it is about Self-knowledge. It negates the doer—the person identified with their body/mind by making you examine your own experience. Just ask yourself: how do you know what you know? Who is it that knows the experiences you have? If you know something, it cannot be who you are. The question is then, who is the experiencing entity, and who is the knower of the experiencing entity?
Vedanta reveals that the experiencing entity is the one identified with the experiencer; the individual called Timor. It is the one who thinks the body and mind are real. But how can Timor or the body/mind be real? Real is defined as that which is always present and never changes. But the body/mind is not always present and is always changing. The body/mind is not present in deep sleep, so where is it then? Who or what is it that keeps the body/mind alive while awake or asleep? When you wake up from deep sleep, which was an experience, you know that you slept, don’t you? So, who is it that knows if the body/mind was not present during deep sleep?
Therefore, we say that the body/mind is only apparently real (mithya), which’ means that while the body/mind exists because you experience it, it cannot be who you are. It is an object known to you, Consciousness. The body-mind appear to be conscious, to think and experience ONLY because YOU, the light of Consciousness shines on it. Remove Consciousness and the body/mind dies, but you are still there. You were always there and always will be. Consciousness is unborn and undying. The body-mind can be negated but the non-experiencing entity, the Self/Consciousness (Satya) can never be negated because it is the only factor that is always present and never changes.
So, you do not need any special experience to experience the Self because that is all you are ever experiencing. All experiences take place and end in time. But Consciousness is not ‘in’ time. It is the knower of time and of all objects. If you are confused about this it is only because you just have a knowledge/ignorance problem, and you have come to the right place for that. Vedanta reveals to you that all experience is a thought. This is a thought universe because everything exists only in your mind. If you are identified with the body/mind, then you believe that objects (experience/thoughts) are real, and they exist separate from you. Vedanta pramana provides the investigation into the reality of the world and your true identity, revealing that you are not your body/mind or the individual with its life story. You are the non-experiencing, whole and complete, non-dual, ever-present and unchanging Consciousness/Self.
Existence/Consciousness/Self does not experience because there is no duality for the Self, there is only itself. However, Consciousness is associated with name and form (an object, i.e. a thought), experience happens. Unless Existence is associated with name and form, it cannot be experienced. Thus, Consciousness experiences indirectly in that no experience can take place without it – it makes experience possible. So, once again, we must ask experienced by whom? As stated, you are only ever experiencing Consciousness, but unless you have Self-knowledge, you don’t know this. The Self/Consciousness needs nothing to experience itself. When Maya (ignorance) appears, there is (apparently) something for Consciousness to be aware of and experience seemingly happens. But as Consciousness sees only itself, who is it that experiences? The jiva/individual is just a lens through which Consciousness apparently experiences objects, with the emphasis on ‘apparently’.
How Perception/Experience Happens
Gross objects require Consciousness to be known. Human or sentient beings require Consciousness, a functioning intellect, and sense organs to know anything. The sense organs give rise to the experience of things in the body. Without functioning sense organs and intellect, you cannot experience anything. You would be a ‘vegetable’, in a permanent coma.
When we look at an object, whether it’s a subtle object appearing only in the mind (like a thought, feeling or image) or a gross physical object with a name and form, the Subtle body sends out a thought, a beam of light, a ray of Consciousness to the object. Consciousness shines on the Subtle body and illumines the mind and senses, which in turn, illumines the object. However, the thought or ray of Consciousness sent from the intellect to the object is inert, meaning, is not itself conscious. You know this to be true because your thoughts do not know you. You know your thoughts. Consciousness is delivered to objects through the mechanical process of reflected consciousness shining or bouncing off a conscious, sentient object – a jiva (Timor) or Subtle body. Thus, experience takes place. If you cannot see a material or subtle object, no thought can reach it, so no experience of it is possible. Subtle objects like thoughts and feelings are known in the mind in the same way, by Consciousness shining on the mind.
Vedanta is a valid means of knowledge for Consciousness and tells you right up front that you are not the experiencing entity but the Self. However, it is not easy to know what this means, which is why if you want to be free of suffering, you must commit to the teachings and develop all the qualifications for self-inquiry, as I told you a few times now. I strongly suggest you read James book ‘How to Attain Enlightenment’ if you have not done so, with particular emphasis on chapter 2: Experience and Knowledge. The same information in that book is available in the form of three free 12-part courses on our Shiningworld website, called the Essence of Enlightenment. It takes you through the whole methodology and provides the right questions and answers.
Timor: As I know Consciousness does not need the mind to know itself. When Consciousness needs to know the world then it takes the form of the mind and experiences the world.
Sundari: Consciousness needs nothing to know itself because there is only itself. What is there to know? How can ‘Consciousness need’ to know the world or take a form if it is a partless whole and the forms are not real? Consciousness has no needs; it does not create and never takes any form. When Maya manifests, Consciousness apparently ‘knows’ objects because there is something for Consciousness to know—with the emphasis on APPARENTLY. But Consciousness is not a knower as such; it is that which makes knowing possible, therefore Consciousness plus Maya=Isvara/Creator of the Field of Existence. Isvara is the only knower. The jiva (individual) seems to be conscious and know/experience, but it only does so because the light of Consciousness shines on the mind.
The jiva/ego thinks it is a doer and owns things and experiences, not realizing that everything comes from and belongs to Isvara. But, Isvara is not ‘in the forms’ either because Isvara never takes a form, though it creates all forms. Isvara is the uncaused cause of creation; it is both the intelligence behind the substance and the substance itself. Although the creation arises from it (Pure Consciousness associated with Maya), Isvara cannot become the creation. Therefore, the effects (matter) is just an apparent transformation of the cause, Consciousness. It is not an actual transformation because if it were, Consciousness would have lost its limitless nature when it transformed into matter.
Remember, this world, the jiva, is only apparently real. Isvara’s only function is to provide the jiva with a field of objects within which to work out its karma. That’s it. Isvara’s creation runs on natural laws and so everything in the Field is in balance and in check for this sole purpose. The apparent individual under the spell of ignorance takes duality to be real because it has no way of discriminating between what is real and apparently real. Even someone with considerable knowledge can be deluded by Maya and be seduced by the seeming reality of objects. Ignorance is tenacious. Only Self-knowledge removes it.
The apparent reality (mithya) is a union of paraprakiti or higher reality (meaning Isvara) and aparaprakiti (jiva) lower reality. Their common identity is uparaprakriti, or Satya: Pure Consciousness, or Isvara. Isvara shapes the materials into form without ever losing or modifying its own nature. Both Isvara and jiva depend on pure Consciousness (Satya) but pure Consciousness depends on neither. Isvara and Jiva are ultimately not real, though their essence is real because everything comes back to the Self, Consciousness.
Timor: Mind is subtle but is not a different entity. It is a modulation or activity of the mind.
Sundari: Different from what? I am not sure what you mean: are you saying that the mind is a product of the modulation of thought—how can that be? The mind is an instrument, an object known to Consciousness. It has certain functions and allows you to experience, i.e., think and feel, but it is inert. The mind seems to think, i.e. ‘modulate’ to experience/activity only because the light of Consciousness shines on it, as I said before. I know English is not your first language, but it makes it difficult to understand what you mean.
Timor: You can’t deny your experience. Witness position is half-way position of Vedanta. Consciousness is experiencing itself. For example -screen and movie, screen is not witness or different from movie. It is reality or modulation of the screen.
Sundari: Consciousness is only ever experiencing itself because there is no other option. Nobody is denying experience, we are simply explaining why experience is not real. The screen analogy is a good metaphor for duality as a superimposition onto Consciousness, but I don’t know what you mean by ‘witness is a halfway position of Vedanta’. Please explain.
Timor: Because Consciousness is not a witness of objects (feeling, sensation, etc.)
Sundari: Consciousness is the only witness because there is only Consciousness. But because Consciousness sees only itself, it does not witness/know in the way the Isvara/ jiva does. Isvara is the only knower, as explained above.
Timor: So, every experience is real, only thought gives a name this experience then duality is created. No experience means no duality.
Sundari: Experience is real if you know it is you, Consciousness and you are not identified with the experiencing entity. And no experience is real if you are identified with the experiencing entity. Name and form create duality. No thought/experience=Non-dual Consciousness. Moksa is experience in so far as it is Consciousness itself, but it is not “an experience,” or an event because all experience begins ends. Vedanta is a means of knowledge (pramana) which reveals the nature of the Self as unborn ever-experienced sat-chit-ananda. It saves qualified inquirers the trouble of chasing Self experience because no matter how experientially enlightened you are, you will still have to remove the belief that you are an experiencing entity. The Gita defines liberation as jnana karma sanyass, negation of the experiencing entity by Self-knowledge, alone.
Timor: We can’t perceive the world as matter. We perceive our perception, and perception is knowing. So, no duality.
Sundari: Yes, correct. But if you are identified with the experiencing entity, you are in duality. If you know there is no separation between you and objects, that is non-dual vision. As the jiva all matter/objects are experienced in the mind, the subjective reality and not real. But as the Self, there are no objects as the subject/object split is negated. All is known to be Self. But who are you referring to as ‘we’? Is it the non-dual Self, or is it the one who thinks it knows the non-dual Self/Consciousness, the experiencing entity?
Timor: YOU ARE DENYING THE EXPERIENCE. DO YOU MEAN SENSATION, HEARING, TESTING, SMELLING ETC. ALL EXPERIENCE ARE NOT REAL.
Sundari: You have not understood the teaching. This is not my teaching, Timor. The scripture, Vedanta, does not deny experience but says that experience is not real. It reveals that you are not the experiencing entity but the knower of the experiencing entity. I have explained to you the difference between real (satya) that which is always present and never changing and APPARANTLY real (mithya), which is not always present and always changing. I cannot argue with you on this point.
Timor: YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCE ENTITY, WHAT DO MEAN?
Sundari: The experiencing entity is the jiva. Who do you think you are—the one who experiences or the one who KNOWS the experiencer? You cannot be both.
Timor: CONSCIOUSNESS ITSELF EXPERIENCE WAKING, DREAMING, DEEP SLEEP. IN THREE STATE CONSCIOUSNESS SAME. IT’S MODULATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
Sundari: Consciousness never modulates because it does not experience any state. All states are mithya. Consciousness makes all states possible but is never in any state because it is unchanging, and all states change. It is the knower of and common denominator in all states. The only non-negatable factor.
Timor: IF WE EXPLORE EVERY EXPERIENCE, WE FIND, THERE IS NOTHING OTHER THAN KNOWING (not a conception) IT. It is pure knowing being (sat chit ananda).
Sundari: Yes, this is a nondual reality, so there is only Consciousness, Sat Chit Ananda. Consciousness knows only Itself and does not need to experience (objects) to know anything. Maybe the issue here is just language and you do understand the difference between satya and mithya, but the way you word your questions makes it appear not to be so.
Om, Sundari
