Ramji,
I want to get your input on my understanding of vasanas/karma. The gunas (Iswara) are not a person, but impersonal FORCES which are the blueprint and perception of every experience (the thought portion of experience) and karma/change.
Ramji: Yes, but to say they are the perception of every experience is not correct because there is only one perceiver, the Self, and it is guna free. The gunas can’t perceive because they are material forces. Knowledge doesn’t perceive, action doesn’t perceive and matter doesn’t perceive. So, aided by Maya, the Self perceives. I understand that this is not the import of your question. I’m just being picky about the language.
This includes the experience of the limited I, calling itself I, a person, a conscious being. This is a vasana driven identity passed along from eons ago, is it not?
Ramji: Yes. It is a conceptual entity that arose after billions of years of cosmic time. It began when Consciousness (assuming the presence of Maya) became self-aware.
Because at 2 weeks of age there is no limited I, it is a learned concept of separation or difference from objects, a perception of separation from the field that is dictated by the already existing vasanas.
Ramji: Yes. The sense of separation is unconscious from the individual’s point of view but becomes conscious when the gunas have established the physical body securely in the material world. The sense of separation or incompleteness builds up over time, as you say in the next sentence.
Vasanas build up over time, So I have “lived” here for thousands of years and the tendencies of every living being (jiva) has accumulated in form of the unconscious that drives /motivates desire, action or karma for each jiva.
Ramji: Yes.
Human Jiva learns of this process when he examines his personality/psyche (but has no direct access to the bank of all the vasanas, which is Isvara).
Ramji: Correct.
Can I extend this to matter, electrons are also driven by “tendency” to go to their lower energy state no matter how much you try to keep them up in the excited states.
Ramji: Yes. It is an inexorable force. Excitement (rajas) morphs into its opposite, entropy and disappears only to reappear later in an endless circle.
SO, when you tell us experience is the result of past actions, it is actions of the entire field built up over millions of years in a bank of vasanas (Iswara), who is an I that has lived over millions of years?
Ramji: Yes. It is an “eternal person.” It is a conscious entity that is aware of everything that happens and keeps a record. In Vedic science it is called chitra gupta, which means a scribe. It “writes” everything that happens down. Its vasanas are “words.” Recall the first mantra of the Mandukya Upanishad, “OM, the word, is all this.” All this refers to all knowledge, action and material matter. The “words” it “writes” are sounds, vibrations with an inexorable absolute creative power, that keep the cosmic “wheel” spinning.
….not sure if I can say it is the eternal Jiva which in a human mind can claim I, act based on the forces of subconscious and collect karma, etc.
Ramji: Yes, you can. Isvara and Jiva are both you, existence shining as unborn ever-full awareness. It is all that Me. Conceptual, non-eternal jiva can’t claim it because it isn’t conscious and it is just one of countless objects that momentarily flash into being and then disappear.
At some point in “time” jiva realizes that awareness/being is its very essence because of which he thinks, perceives/feels, emotes based on what vasana is influencing.
Ramji: Yes, indeed. It can “realize,” which is a conscious event, because it is non-different from Consciousness.
Then, existent/awareness (I) is out of time so I have nothing to do with the sequential transformation of vasanas into desires and desires into actions and actions into vasanas.
Ramji: Yes. The “then” is incorrect because cause and effect language doesn’t really apply but I think you know that.
There is no discrete being, just I, the “ground of being. The word “I” is really a pointer to that which is silent/presence and has no discrete form shape, subtle or gross but somehow IS the form and shape of everything that exists.
Ramji: Yes!
A bit of intellectual questioning. I know this supposes cause and effect and/or projection of all of this including the time period for all of this to evolve. If you think you need me to hear your words/answer we can do a zoom, or better yet wait till I see you in Trout lake. Otherwise , email will do.
Ramji: Why wait? I had my red pencil out but couldn’t use it. You have it all right. I tidied up your words a bit so as not to confuse others. The basic idea…that you can claim Isvara status…is very radical so you need to be mindful of the context in which you claim it. It is entirely appropriate to discuss it with me, however. Knowing your non-separation from jiva and Isvara destroys jiva’s sense of limitation, separation and inadequacy. Krishna, speaking as the Self, says that a person who understands non-duality “is dear to me,” which means “is me.” When he addresses Arjuna as a friend he is saying that there is no difference, in so far as friendship the perfect mirror of the truth.
Thanks Bossman! So glad you decided to keep the satang this Sunday. Easter is for the BIRDS. 🙂
You are most welcome.
Much love,
Bossman