Allen: 1) Causal, Subtle & Gross
I understand there is a macro and micro, which is to say, Ishwara and Jiva, version of the 3 bodies: causal, subtle, and gross. I am confused though by what I took to be your placing vasanas in Ishwara’s causal body and in Jiva’s subtle body.
Sundari: The Causal body is synonymous with the three gunas and is the repository of all vasanas because all vasanas are guna generated and beginningless. The Causal body is another term for Isvara, System 1. But Isvara is Pure Consciousness wielding Maya, it is not a person and does not have any ‘bodies’. Jiva has a Subtle body that contains a Gross body and a microcosmic causal body, i.e., the unconscious or ‘system 2’, programmed by its vasana load.
Allen: Am I wrong in thinking that in both macro and micro the 3 gunas line up neatly as causal = predominantly sattvic, subtle = predominantly rajasic, and gross = predominantly tamasic?
Sundari: The Causal body/Isvara is pure Consciousness wielding Maya and as such, unaffected by the gunas. If it were not, there would be no freedom from their effects: mithya/duality/ignorance. The gunas are called macrocosmic vasanas i.e. they belong to Isvara or the Total, the Creation. All vasanas arise from the three gunas: sattva, rajas, and tamas which are what makeup Maya—the dharmafield or creation. The gunas give rise to the jiva, the vasanas and their results (karma). Vasanas are not inherently good or bad. They are the seeds—the knowledge—that drives Creation. Nothing stirs in the creation or apparent reality without a vasana driving it, whether it is a once-off thing or an often-repeated pattern of behavior. A vasana becomes a good one when it drives you into pleasant circumstances and it becomes a bad one when it drives you into an unpleasant situation. A vasana is the momentum from a past action, the tendency to repeat it. It is purely a technical term.
But vasanas can also sprout without any previously known tendency or desire because the seeds for all vasanas are Isvara and therefore exist as potential in everyone. It may seem like ‘our’ vasanas are personal and original, but they are not. All vasanas are eternal because they originate in the Causal body. Isvara churns them out over and over because there is really only one eternal Jiva or Subtle body, appearing as many seemingly unique individuals with seemingly unique ‘issues’. They are not unique (although the ego likes to think they are) but generic and timeless. It is impossible to put a timeline to this logic because as principles the Gunas, the individual jiva, and the Vasanas cannot be separated as they exist ‘out of time’, in infinite potential within the Causal body, which is infinite because it exists in Consciousness.
Allen: Is it not the rajasic in the Jiva that employs fast thinking and the sattvic slow thinking?
Sundari: Not necessarily. Rajasic thinking is typified by an extroverted mind under the whip of desire and/or fear. Sattvic thinking tends to be calm clear thinking, but when rajas is in balance with sattva, the mind is capable of fast and clear thought.
Allen: Now fast thinking and slow thinking are terms that apply to the Jiva and not to Ishwara, is that right?
Sundari: Most definitely. Isvara is not a person, as stated above, and thus does not think. Isvara wields Maya and is karma phala datta, the giver of karma. There is no thought involved in the delivery of karma as Isvara in the role of creator is an impersonal principle.
The Subtle body (jiva) is conscious and seems to think but it can only think because Isvara has provided it with an intellect and the light of Consciousness shines on it. Thanks to Maya, the jiva identifies with its guna-programmed thoughts/emotions and believes it is a doer/thinker, separate from the objects/Field of Existence, blind to its true nature as Consciousness.
Allen: For Ishwara, vasanas and the causal body are identical, for Ishwara 2 that is, Maya, the creator and sustainer of the subtle and gross bodies — and am I wrong to see these as (predominantly) Rajas and Tamas?
Sundari: The creation manifests with the emergence of ALL three gunas. Sattva is intelligence, knowledge; tamas the heavy dense energy of matter; rajas the mode of action or desire. We need all three gunas to function. There would not be a world to function in for the Subtle body if all three were not always present because they make up the fabric of the created world, whether sentient or insentient. The nature of the mind is sattva, and the nature of gross matter is tamas. Neither sattva nor tamas creates. Rajas, the energy of passion and action, is required to activate the blueprint for creation. The problems arise for the jiva when the relative proportions of rajas and tamas are out of balance with sattva.
Allen: Now perhaps my mixing up the 3 gunas with the 3 bodies, is the source of my confusion.
Sundari: Yes, it is, but it seems that confusion is a result of some gap in your understanding of the gunas/Isvara.
Allen: Or perhaps I misheard or misunderstood you to say that for Jiva, the vasanas as or in the causal body manifest as fast thinking, and thus it is in or as the subtle body that Jiva through slow thinking can break free of this or that vasana. Is that what you were saying? Please correct me if I have that wrong.
Sundari: You must have misunderstood the analogy we used these terms for referencing System 1 and System 2. See below.
Allen: Yet distinguishing Satya from Mithya too is a vasana, no? A vasana we wish to strengthen until it is constant and automatic, right? I understand that slow thinking, or Inquiry, can accomplish this.
Sundari: Yes, discriminating satya from mithya is a vasana we need to strengthen and then drop once the knowledge assimilates. As James says: satya and mithya are mithya. They are teaching tools, a means to an end. Once the Self is known to be oneself, they are useless because Self-knowledge means there is no jiva other than the Self. You drink a coke and you throw away the can. If the jiva survives Self-knowledge, then it needs to do nididhyasana, which involves getting rid of the teachings that were helpful at one time, but no longer apply. “What use is a small pond when the whole land is flooded?” As long as you are discriminating between satya and mithya you are still a jiva. Self-knowledge is non-discriminating “wisdom.” “The one who knows, knows.” That’s the end of it.
End quote. But it is not simple. This is why nididhysana is usually the longest stage of inquiry for all inquirers.
Allen: When this vasana becomes hard and fast (meaning here, firm or unchanging) knowledge we call it Jiva Mukti or Paramatman, right?
Sundari: Yes, see above. When the knowledge is hard and fast there is no longer a ‘discriminator’. There is only the Self.
Allen: Perhaps I will be able to understand what you mean by associating fast thinking with Jiva’s causal body and slow thinking with Jiva’s subtle body — unless I’m already misunderstanding what you said by writing it this way — if you could describe the process of strengthening the Satya-Mithya-discrimination vasana in terms of Jiva’s 3 bodies.
Sundari: Fast thinking is simply a way of describing how the Causal body works, it is an analogy. Isvara/the Causal is an automatic processor, like a computer.
This is what I wrote about System 1 and 2 using Daniel Kahneman’s terms fast and slow thinking:
System 1 can be applied as a code term to describe Maya in association with Consciousness appearing as Isvara, the Creator. In other words, the ‘cause’ of the world of objects, the effects, or System 2, the jiva. We can also call System 1 the Macrocosmic Causal Body or the Unconscious. It contains the ‘personal’ or microcosmic causal body (the subconscious mind). System 2 incorporates the physical body, the conscious mind with its personal subconscious, the 5 subtle and gross organs of perception, the 5 organs of action, the five prana, i.e. the Subtle Body.
The real usefulness of the terms System 1 and 2 either for the seeker of liberation or the average person (samsari) is that they help to understand why reality is not perceived the way it really is. Isvara wielding Maya (System 1) operates the dharmafield (Systems 1 and 2) in such a way that the conscious mind (System 2) is deluded. The conscious mind cannot be blamed for this because without Self-knowledge, the person is programmed by Maya to interpret experience according to its conditioning, the Causal Body, System 1. It is like wearing a blindfold but not knowing you are wearing one, you think you can see.
We can liken System 1 to an information processor, like a computer. It not only provides the raw material for an experience it is responsible for experience by setting it in motion and recording it. System 1 is astonishingly powerful and ‘thinks’ so fast that we are almost never aware of the information until after the fact, if at all. According to cognitive neuroscientists, if we had to apportion actual brain function to the two systems (which they see as the unconscious and conscious minds), System 1 has 40 million nerve impulses per second whereas System 2 has 40 nerve impulses per second. This means that System 1 is one million times more powerful … and faster … than System 2!
In contrast to System 1’s computational brilliance, System 2 has only marginal aptitude for creativity. It is a stimulus-response system, with pre-recorded responses totally predicated by System 1. This clearly demonstrates that System 1 controls all behaviour not attended to by System 2, which turns out to be just about everything that is apparently ‘happening’ in present time! For most people, System 2 or the conscious mind is so preoccupied with predictable thoughts about the past, present, and future, or whatever imaginary problem absorbs it, that it is unaware of the function of System 1. System 2 contributes about 5 percent of our cognitive activity. This means that 95 percent of our decisions, actions, emotions, and behaviour are derived from the unobserved processing of System 1, the Causal Body. This process is automatic, which is why ignorance is so hardwired, tenacious, and sneaky.
It is believed that of the 4 billion stimuli that are available to the conscious mind at any given moment, only around 2,000 of these stimuli are recorded. And which would these be? Only those stimuli that conform to the individual’s frame of reference: their conditioning. For all intents and purposes, the remaining stimuli do not exist for System 2, although they impact it in unseen ways too numerous to mention. As long as ignorance of our true nature as Consciousness, and therefore of Isvara, remains, our ‘fate’ is actually under the control of our conditioning or vasana load. This is called bondage and there is no escape from the relentless pressure of the apparent reality, of being and becoming. Hence the saying: “Life is something that happens to you while you are busy doing other things.” Or: “Man proposes, and God disposes.” System 1 is always running in the background and is the real lead in the movie of our lives, although most of us are unconscious of this fact. If we do not have Self-knowledge, we think that System 2, the conscious mind, is making decisions and running our lives.
Where it gets difficult is to effect a change in System 2, a permanent cognitive shift first needs to take place in System 1, the Causal Body. The important distinction to make here is that the effects which make the dharmafield are Isvara, but Isvara is not the effects. Isvara is the cause, not the effects. The cause does not change, it is eternal and outside of time. The effects change and affect each other, which is why we can render binding vasanas non-binding. The only way for the conscious mind, ego, or System 2 (jiva) to effect a change in System 1 is by Self-knowledge introducing a change in the intellect which brings about a change in the thoughts, feelings, and the execution of actions in System 2. This is no easy task because System 1 or ignorance is very powerful. Think of David and Goliath. System 2, David, must aim that blow to System 1, Goliath, very precisely. But it is possible, thanks to Self-knowledge.
The reason it is possible to effect change in the Causal body is that there is a two-way connection between Isvara and the jiva. Even though from a psychological perspective on the relative level or apparent reality, System 1 and 2 are so unevenly matched. The conditioning that runs System 2 can be changed in System 1 where it originates from, through repeated, appropriate action based on Self-knowledge. When it comes to deeply entrenched conditioning or vasanas, it is extremely difficult and requires constant vigilance. What this entails is every day, moment to moment asserting and re-asserting your nature as limitless Consciousness with every thought word and deed.
If no change of thought takes place in System 2, System 1 will continue running unchanged, by default. Making these changes in one’s thinking in the light of Self-knowledge is what renders binding vasanas non-binding. All true inquirers soon discover that the application of Self-knowledge is hard work and no walk in the park. It requires taking a stand in Awareness as Awareness 24/7, which is beyond both systems. Only Self-knowledge is capable of permanently removing ignorance of our true nature. The important question to ask, always is: Who is the knower of System 1 and System 2? Of course, this is Consciousness, the Self. What does it matter, then, what our apparent nature is if it is not real and ‘belongs’ to Isvara? Why bother with it? The only issue with the jiva is if there are residual vasanas causing a disturbance in the mind, in which case, nididhysana is the way to remove them.
Allen: I think of vasanas as repetitions, for jivas (though there is only 1 Jiva) or jivas thinking/acting, as habits, habits of thought.
Sundari: Yes, vasanas are repetitive actions/thoughts based on guna-generated mental programs, as mentioned above.
Allen: As apparent individuals, do we not seek to replace bad habits with good habits, or bad habits of thought with good ones?
Sundari: I do believe that most people try to improve and be their best selves, nobody enjoys suffering. Sadly, it is very hard for people to change their bad habits without Self-knowledge, hence the sayings like ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’. The problem is that trying to improve the jiva does not end suffering because it does not address its root cause: the hypnosis of duality, ignorance. Freedom is not about improving the jiva or becoming a better person, though that usually does happen as an effect of Self-knowledge. It is not the goal. Freedom is freedom from the limitations of the identification with the jiva as your primary identity.
Allen: I tend to think of Jiva in terms of the 5 sheaths, but I know Ramji teaches Jiva in terms of 3 bodies as well — which you seem to have assimilated, learned, and now simply know.
Sundari: It makes no difference how you think of the jiva as long as you understand that the jiva is you, the Self, but you are not it.
Allen: Can you explain it to me so I can understand it? As I recall, when I said the vasanas are in the causal body, you said that is macro only and that for Jiva, on the micro-level, they are in the subtle body? Do I have that right? Then how is fast thinking a manifestation of Jiva’s causal body and slow thinking the subtle body?
Sundari: This is answered above. As stated all gunas/vasanas are macrocosmic, i.e., originate from the Causal body. The individual Subtle body is programmed by its guna-generate vasana load according to its karma. When moksa obtains, all karma is burned up. There is no karma for the Self. There is no longer an individual jiva, though it still seemingly manifests. It is as good as non-existent.
Allen: I confess to my confusion here. Thank you for any help you can offer me. I tend to think in terms of Intellect (an instrument of knowledge), Mind (not in the Western sense but in Vedanta’s meaning of thought in service to emotion), and Ego (this last representing thought emanating from an identity with the gross, physical body).
Sundari: Essentially correct. When the mind is purified and moksa obtains, all thinking is in line with the Self. Automatic and repetitive guna-generated thinking is rendered non-binding (see explanation how this happens above), so thinking becomes spontaneously Self-referenced and free of the limitation of duality, i.e., the conceptual jiva and its programs.
Allen: Perhaps I superimpose the 3-some of I, M, E onto causal, subtle and gross bodies, and/or sattvic, rajasic and tamasic thought/action, thereby, as far as understanding the teaching of Vedanta (itself a mere instrument to be tossed aside when knowledge reveals Satya to be Reality and the Ishwara-Jiva duality but a dream of Mithya and ‘real’ only as such) hopelessly confusing myself by superimposing completely separate regimes (or instruments) of Inquiry onto one another?
Sundari: Yes, most likely.
Allen: Of course, Paramatman even as a concept, let alone as Reality itself — as I Am, cannot be reduced to such dualistic notions as macro and micro: They are Me (I Am) but I am not them. But help me understand the teaching better, even if it is only a ladder to be kicked away when no longer needed, by explaining how the macro and micro 3 bodies operate differently. Thanks!
Sundari: All these terms are mithya and necessary for teaching and the assimilation of the teachings, Once Self-knowledge obtains, they all fall away and what remains is only the Self, ‘the one who knows’. (See Quote from Ramji above).
Here is the breakdown of how knowing happens:
1. Both the known and unknown do not apply to the Self because it is not a knower in the sense we use that word. How can it be a knower if there is only itself? What’s to know or not know if all there is, is you? The jiva is not a knower either because it is not conscious; it is an inert know object whose consciousness (ability to know) belongs to the presence of the Self. But does it belong to the Self? Yes and no. No consciousness is possible without the Self, but the Self/Consciousness does not know anything because it does not modify to experience.
2. When Maya appears, prakriti, the subtlest form of matter that the creation is created from, appears ‘simultaneously’ in Maya, before the gunas emerge. Prakriti is reflected Awareness and also does not know anything because it is not modified by the gunas, which have not manifested yet.
3. When the gunas manifest, pure Awareness operating Maya in the ‘role’ of the Creator, meaning Isvara, knows the world – the reflected medium – because Isvara is conscious. Why? Because with the appearance of Maya there is something to be conscious of – an apparent creation, the reflected medium. Isvara is in fact, the only knower.
4. The reflected medium is the Field of Existence in which the jiva perceives, experiences and works out its karma. The Field and the Jiva seem conscious because the light of Consciousness shines on them. We can infer that the Field is intelligent and must have an intelligent creator because we know that we are conscious, and the Field is intelligently designed. Consciousness makes everything possible, everything depends on it, but Consciousness is unaffected by everything.
Allen: 2) The Lotus and Desire
The single lotus in the pond outside my small room in Auroville, did not desire the sun when it closed its petals at night; it desired the sun when it was shining and it opened its petals to the light.
Similarly, our deep desire is not a lack, for I do not lack enlightenment even when I appear to be unenlightened, for I am the light and that is my desire (thus I Am That [which is desirable]) — always already completely fulfilled!
Sundari: If you truly know that and live it, there is no need for a teaching. Knowing you are the Self means you know you are that which makes the lotus and the light possible. Who needs enlightenment?
Much love
Sundari