Dear James,
According to Google, the Lord’s Prayer appears in two forms in the New Testament: the shorter version in the Gospel According to Luke (11:2–4) and part of the Sermon on the Mount, in the Gospel According to Matthew (6:9–13).
The story goes that Christ says that Ishvara lures Man into evil (adharma) which harks back to the Old Testament. Why put a tree of knowledge in the middle of a garden with delicious apple and send a snake to warn the archetypical first human couple not to eat it?
According to the Pope 2000 years later, who seems to know better that Jesus, Isvara does not do that. He says that a few hundred years after Christ died The Church took the liberty to edit the story. It evidently felt that sex is not a good look for spiritual people.
I’m trying to figure out what this story really means. Please bear with me. The Pope omits to say what will tempt human beings or if there is an unknown source of adharma. Nor does he say if there is an active push for dharmic action by Ishvara, implying that Ishvara doesn’t care either way. Ishvara “makes the rough places smooth” but it seems this is not something which can be prayed for, it just is.
James: It depends on what the word God or Ishvara means. If it means existence shining as pure unborn whole and complete awareness, then it is true, but only the Pope knows if he defines God in this way. I suspect he doesn’t. If he means awareness plus Maya (Ignorance i.e. the Creation), which is so interesting and beautiful that it distracts us from our true immortal Self, then it is untrue. That God does listen and does respond to us when we pray.
Nick: The Pope omits to say that dharmic action is impersonally supported by Ishvara according to the needs of the whole when and if the whole needs it.
It is also illogical when he says that Christian jivas, who are only 31% of God’s children are special. They needn’t worry about active punishment if they go to church and repent, even though the “afterlife” is the insurance for the original sin problem. He doesn’t say, as Vedanta does, that sin is due to ignorance of God’s nature. As the head of The Church, he says it is all jiva’s fault and by inference that we can’t help ourselves without The Church or the Creator, which denies the existence of empowering Self knowledge.
This leaves Christian individuals ignorant in my view. The Pope would do well to upgrade the Lord’s prayer as he is editing God’s Story anyhow. Well, his upgrade, needs an upgrade. He seems to be actively keeping ignorance going. He also omits to say who or what “does” dharma and adharma, probably because he doesn’t know himself.
James: That’s Vedanta’s view.
Nick: Here is where I need help, please offer any reflection you may have .
The Self sees the vasanas which are present because of action due to ignorance of the Self.
James: Isvara 2 (The Self plus Maya (Beautiful Intelligent Ignorance) sees and responds to the vasanas. Isvara 1…Pure Consciousness has no idea there are vasanas or karma.
Nick: The (adharmic) vasanas – unchecked by a jiva with Self-Knowledge- promulgate “evil” or adharmic action, like trying to drive a car up the autobahn with a dark windshield. The car is “driven” by the vasanas and the jiva is in it, suffering the inevitable crashes which eventually wears the body out. The jiva thinks, “Where am I going in this car? Towards this opaque object which might bring me freedom – bang! oh it didn’t.”
James: Yes, but dharmic vasanas have the opposite result. They don’t create “evil.” They create good karma, which is called merit (punya) which leads one toward freedom and non-dual love in so far as they attract a mahatma and an impersonal means of Self knowledge and assuming you’re open to a story upgrade. I can’t think of a better story than Vedanta’s, “You are pure and perfect as the driven snow. You are immortal. Vedant’s story is actually a story you can verify with the tools it supplies.
Nick: Ishvara is not “doing” anything to any jiva. To pray “please take the apple away, keep me in blissful ignorance and take me back to the pre-paradise first tree, is the bliss jivas seem to want.
James: Yes. Definitely. Jivas are lazy. They are happy to pray like crazy but when it comes to action, they would rather just sit on the toilet and read a book than actually poop.
The prayer “May I not fall into evil” is directed at the wrong target. Ishvara clearly lets millions fall every day who say that prayer every day!
James: Yes. The falling is up to the jiva. It is fallen for want of a mature attitude. It is paternalistic, begging for help because it doesn’t appreciate the value of motivate active inquiry. No blame. We are all born ignorant. God only responds meaningfully to sincere seekers. “With a heart that knows no otherness keep your attention on Me alone and I will take care of your getting and keeping.” Bhagavad Gita. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Nick: The Self might suggest that a jiva pray by directing its attention to God as God rather than asking God to prevent it from doing ignorant adharmic actions, which is like driving a car with a black windscreen and praying to avoid a crash. It might read like this, “Guide me as the Self to the Self (biblically perhaps the second Tree (of Life) protected by the swords and fiery Cherubim i.e. nothing in Maya gets through there, other than the Self.”
James: Yes. See above.
Nick: So perhaps the jiva should reject the original Tree of “Knowledge” given by Ishvara? It’s not sin to know, its sin not to know. So perhaps Eve did Adam a big favor and got things started. The Self is not tempted…the jiva is… but only insofar as it does not see the Self. And ignorant jiva is tempted by all the juicy fruit in God’s garden.
James: Yes. Brilliant, “It’s not a sin to know, it’s a sin not to know.” We need to engage with our ignorance-inspired “sins.” Karma Yoga, right action, shIsvara 2, which is conscious, that we are serious and elicits a response. (Add Georg’s epiphany here)
We don’t know if the Pope knows the difference between Isvara and the Self so we can’t say. He probably doesn’t. He’s the top dualist who has been put in the unenviable position of justifying the existence of tamas (evil) in the church owing to the fact that the exploitation issue is now common knowledge world-wide.
Add Brian’s satsang here
Nick: So, The Church is promoting enslavement, not freedom. Relinquishing one’s freewill and leaving everything to Isvara is not inquiry as far as I can see.
James: Yes, it’s zero-sum. Jiva has no choice about action. It is compelled by Isvara, the gunas, to act. It only has control of its attitude if it wants. So, rather than praying to avoid disaster, it should upgrade its attitude. It should trust the Lord with the results and act out its vasanas to the best of its abilities.
Nick: Giving up actions to God or Ishvara – before the jiva acts- in the knowledge that the jiva is already in and part of Ishvara – means that vasanas burn up and reduce the propensity to do adharmic actions. In other words, speaking as the Self, my jiva’s actions become the prayer to Ishvara without the need for a confirming intermediary,like the priest’s handshake on Sunday, and which the jiva has a propensity to believe owning to a binding desire to accept the pronouncements of authority figures.
James: Big YES to the above. But there is a deeper step. Karma Yoga practiced faithfully, particularly with a devotional meditation practice will install intense devotional energy (bhakti shakti) in the heart and take care of one’s emotional needs henceforth, thus removing the need to solve emotional issues externally with reference to relationships with people, pets, food, or sex.
Nick: Heretical stuff – I am so happy it’s not the 16th century!
James: You bet. The Chruch would have had you on the rack after a good flogging with a cat -o-nine-tails.
P.S. Not making any case for or against Christianity, just trying to clean up my old vasanas! It is odd that such an iconic change seems to have gone past most of the 2 billion people who say that prayer every day. Odd too that any Church can just rewrite the “word of God” is somewhat denying the Bible’s infallibility, especially the part considered the most Holy of all.
James: Well, their idea of the word of God is a bit primitive. For some reason only the Indians got it right…they had plenty of time to coallate the contributions of various seers over many millennia into rational documents that generate the knowledge that removes the need to believe stories. But Vedanta is not for the masses. The Pope’s belated upgrade is an improvement that is good enough for them.
P.P.S. My Auntie said Eve wasn’t the first woman anyhow – Lilith was. She was made just like Adam but she “talked back”. Auntie said the Council of Nicea A.D. 325 took that bit out. Either way the Knowledge is self-evident apart from various historical events!
Your Auntie is right. Speak truth to Power!!! Bring back Lilith! Fortunately, the world is ready for “uppity” women.
