Karl: From my own experience, Vedanta attracts people who enjoy hiding behind the intellectual understanding and do not want to do the hard work of removing likes and dislikes.
James: “Well, they are intelligent enough to protect themselves from hard work. ☺ In fact both statements are true.”
Karl: Yes, both statements are true, but what benefit is it knowing that I am free as awareness and still acting out small-minded thinking?
James: It was a joke, Karl. Did you miss the smiley?
James: “So you can’t teach yourself. You can’t memorize your way to freedom.”
Karl: Yes, but I can apply the learned knowledge of my true nature in the waking hours by reminding myself of it and meditating on it, don’t I?
James: Only if you have heard the teachings as they are meant to be heard. If you interpret them according to your limited understanding at the time, applying them will not bear fruit, i.e. moksa.
James: “If it is your nature, not an event, a pure or impure state of mind is not going to solve the problem.”
Karl: A mind that is free of impurities is certainly recommended, isnt it? Krishna in chapter 12: verses 13-20 is all about it.
James: Yes, but a pure mind is only a means to an end. It is not the goal. So you have always to have the goal in mind when you are practicing. If you haven’t understood that you are already the Self, your practice will just reinforce the belief that you are a doer, doing what you are supposed to do. But if you understand the whole teaching and you are practicing with it in mind, the sense of doership will become fainter and fainter. I get the feeling from your emails that you are fixated on your sadhana. That’s not bad in itself but, to repeat, it’s only a means to an end. I don’t think you understand the difference between Vedanta sadhana and Vedanta pramana.
James: “Only hearing the words of Vedanta and having them contextualized by a teacher is going to set you free. Why? Because you are already free.”
Karl: Only hearing the words of Vedanta?
I tried to find references by Krishna that only listening to Vedanta by a teacher sets one free, but I didn’t come across any references so far. Instead I came across the below reference that supports my focus on meditation with knowledge:
Bhagavad Gita, chapter 12, verse 12: “Knowledge is indeed superior to meditation (without knowledge). Meditation (with knowledge) is superior to mere knowledge. Renunciation of the results of actions (is superior) to meditation. There is peace after renunciation.”
James: You are not seeing the forest because of the trees, Karl. The Gita is a moksa scripture. It is all about inquiry because moksa is knowledge of satya and mithya. You have to be taught how to inquire if you want moksa. In fact Krishna says you gain moksa by prostration, service and inquiry.
Vedanta sadhana is for purification. Vedanta pramana is for knowledge. There is no contradiction, because they have different results. Moksa is freedom from the one who is doing the sadhana, not freedom for that one. Your fixation on action is typical of doers with rajasic minds. I think you think that you already know Vedanta, but Vedanta is discriminating satya from mithya.
That is what I meant when I said “only Vedanta.” I think you think that Vedanta is just a bunch of intellectual teachings, like Buddhism, etc. Vedanta is “the knowledge that ends the quest for knowledge.” And that knowledge is for the knower, not the doer. Vedanta sadhana is for the doer. Vedanta pramanais for the knower.
In any case, you have not understood the meaning of the verse you quoted. I suggest you watch my explanation in the Carbondale series. It is a very tricky verse. It is not saying what it seems to be saying. This is why you need to hear the verses from a qualified teacher.
James: “There is absolutely no connection between action (mithya) and Self-knowledge (satya).”
Karl: I don’t understand what you mean; does not karma prepare the mind so that knowledge can set me free? Plus, isn’t joining a seminar and getting to the location involving lots of actions that are a prerequisite for listening to a teacher of Self-knowledge? Similarly, isn’t a pure mind necessary for meditating on the Self as the Self?
James: This statement is exactly what I meant when I said you don’t understand Vedanta. I’ve said this before. In fact I’ve said it so many times I’m tired of saying it, but it is my duty to give this teaching.
Just let go of all your ideas for a moment and think about this: if there is any connection between you, awareness (satya) and Karl, the doer/enjoyer entity (mithya), freedom is not possible.
Now, I want you to tell me why. There is a very simple answer that makes perfect sense and many people who are not as clever as you understand it. Don’t go through my satsangs or seminars to hear the reason. That’s cheating. Figure it out on your own. If you can’t figure it out, it means that you haven’t been listening properly, which you haven’t. This is why I want you to keep coming to the teachings.
Finally, you should not think that you are going to listen to the teachings when your mind is pure. You should learn how to listen with an impure mind. Most successful people are good listeners but their minds are not pure. You can do sadhana, i.e. work on your stuff, and gain knowledge at the same time. In fact you should because the doer and the knower are always present. The doer and the knower should be addressed simultaneously. There is a (seeming) link because the more you take yourself to be awareness, the less inclined you are to do anything. Why? Because you know that you are whole and complete. You cannot be improved.
I am looking forward to your reply!