Mary: I still think about the last email you wrote to me. Some questions you brought up I couldn’t answer at that time. But they stayed in me, alive, being watched. After the emotional crisis I shared with you, self-realization “came”. In the Nididhysana phase, I think a lot about satisfaction. With these thoughts in mind, I am practicing my way to satisfaction…
Sundari: That’s very good Mary. Self-realization is experiential, and where the work of self-inquiry really begins. As you probably know, there is a methodology to the teachings for a good reason, which is to address each layer of ignorance as it arises. Once you learn to ask the right questions, you are usually ready for the right answers. You cannot ‘practice’ your way to permanent satisfaction, but you must put self-inquiry into practice, which will lead to permanent satisfaction if you are qualified and dedicated to your sadhana. Many inquirers expect quick answers and get impatient, which will not work. There is no shortcut to moksa. Ignorance takes what it takes to remove. Self-inquiry is not easy, which is why qualifications are necessary.
Mary: You asked me if the issue surrounding my relationship had anything to do with boredom. Boredom exists from Jiva’s perspective – an identification with the Jiva. Since then, I ask myself this question… In your last Satsang I found this excerpt:
Most actions are motivated by dissatisfaction, if a Self-realized person is dissatisfied it is because they continue to act according to their jiva program, ignorance/duality is still present, and discrimination temporarily lost.
I see what you say. If there is dissatisfaction and I identify with it, I am compelled to act to end the dissatisfaction. Dissatisfaction triggers the desire to satisfy myself. But life is a 0x0 game and no action can bring satisfaction as a result. This I’ve already verified countless times… So, the way out is not to run after objects, but to deeply understand the meaninglessness of running after objects to satisfy me. I am already full and complete. I do not need anything to be satisfied.
Sundari: Boredom is the quintessential dissatisfaction born of desire, rajas. Desire is painful, and a mind run by its likes and dislikes seeks to end desire by trying futilely to fulfill it, which only creates more desire in an endless circle. Yet desire is not really the problem, because desire is you, Awareness. Desirelessness is also you. It’s all You, but you are not it, so why make a fuss about it? There is nothing inherently wrong with desire or with objects; as long as we are alive, we desire something, if nothing else, to live. Krishna says to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita: “I am the desire that is not opposed to dharma”. You need to have a strong desire for moksa, for instance, or you would not be qualified for it.
The Buddhists believe that desire is the cause of all suffering—which is true. But the solution is not the futile attempt to rid oneself of all desire. The solution is to understand what is behind desire, which is the only way to be free of it. When it comes to gratuitous desires one must use dispassion and discrimination because indulging them does lead to and builds vasanas. It is always a question of motivation. If an individual wants freedom, which Vedanta defines as freedom from dependence on objects, renunciation becomes a problem because liberation requires a very subtle renunciation: renunciation of the renouncer, the one seeking freedom/perfect satisfaction.
Objects do offer a limited kind of bliss, and we can enjoy them for what they have to offer: temporary satisfaction. The only time objects can really be enjoyed for what is when Self-knowledge has obtained and one no longer needs them to deliver what they are incapable of delivering. One sees everything as the Self and enjoys life giving thanks for one’s many blessings, as transient as they are. Isvara’s world is truly beautiful when seen from the perspective of the Self.
Mary: On the one hand I find myself increasingly asserting myself as the Self in the midst of what the field of dharma brings. In the midst of action, I take the perspective of the Self and look at the action being taken from that perspective, my perspective. I don’t see the Jiva, but I see the Self working, the Self talking, the Self living absurd situations, when we know that the Self does not act, does not talk… And I think: none of this really makes sense. How can I do these things? If I know who I am, what can all this be but a dream? And sometimes I feel like laughing, but the laugh doesn’t happen.
And you wrote on the last satsang:
‘But if even though your primary svadharma is self-inquiry, and you know you are the Self, yet you are not experiencing the radiant guilt-free happiness that Self-knowledge implies, then you are not following your nature properly and self-inquiry is incomplete. You are close, but still no cigar. Many advanced inquirers are stuck here. You may be level-headed, honest, and objective about your jiva self and not hiding anything from yourself, but there can still be something is hidden from you.’
What is obstructing the fluidity of the satisfaction of what I am???? I already do some exercises like: fake till you make it. if I need to work and I’m lazy I say to myself: wow, how nice that I was given this task of offering something to Isvara. How nice that this task helps me pay my bills… Glad I can offer something to other Jivas and trigger my love, what I am…
Sundari: As I said above, you cannot rush moksa. Karma yoga is always the answer. If we are stuck it is because some ignorance is standing in the way of Self-knowledge. Ask yourself: Who does the “I” in your statements above really refer to? If you know you are the Self, you are not the doer, though the doer is you. Doing apparently continues for the jiva but the ‘I” is never involved.
You left out the preceding sentence to the quote, which is what pertains to your doubt:
‘If the fruit of Self-knowledge, perfect satisfaction is firm, the jiva, the world, and the doer’s role in it is noticeable mainly by its absence.
But moksa has not yet obtained for you, though you have a good idea what it is. As I said above, you cannot do your way to perfect satisfaction because the doer is the problem. The doer (mind) cannot negate the doer. Moksa cannot be willed by the ego. It is up to Isvara. It is grace and grace is earned. There is a qualitative difference between the mind watching the mind and the Self watching the mind. If it is the Self watching the mind there is no doer and no watcher of the doer. There is no separation between the Jiva and Self, they are known to be one and the same, minus the jiva narrative.
Mary: If I think that Svadharma means: playing my role well in the tasks given to me by Isvara… The situation surrounding my relationship crisis… I see that honesty is still lacking. I’m not playing this role to my full potential… Even though we’re not the characters, we have to play the roles we’re given well, don’t we? With integrity. As the Self I want to watch a convincing play… I know what a good play is. When it’s time to act in the Dharma field as a wife, I think I’m being a bit of a ham (an actor who overacts or relies on stock gestures or mannerisms). There’s something that’s not convincing me… I see myself represented in a bad manner…
Sundari: Moksa is not the jiva trying to be the Self, acting a role to convince itself that it is following its svadharma. Freedom means freedom from and for the jiva. Though there are no rules for an enlightened person, that does not include the Advaita shuffle—using the teachings to justify action or inaction when the opposite is required. What is not convincing you is the inauthenticity in your relationship. You cannot expect the knowledge to alleviate your problems by living up to some idea of what you think a ‘wife’ should be.
What is a wife? It’s just a word, it means nothing. A relationship is about love, not gender-based roles. No amount of convincing is going to free you of the burden of inauthenticity. If you are unhappy and cannot be authentic, leave your relationship or accept it as it is without complaint. Stay because you love your ‘husband’ and see him as the Self or leave because you don’t. It’s really that simple. You are driving yourself crazy. The teachings will not help you with this because Vedanta does not tell you what to do. It is not your parent. But if you want to be happy, you need to get the jiva in line with the teachings, not the other way around.
Mary: And you told me that in this case, Karma Yoga does not help… It would help to say to myself: I am not a wife? I have no relationship? It would help to say: I am still complete. Nothing can be added or taken from me? It would be possible to say: Isvara do what you want about it… I would like only to observe? If I am the Self, why is it important? What is the problem? I am working on the issues you presented to me.
Sundari: That’s right. You cannot use karma yoga to make an unworkable situation work because it does not work to impose satya onto mithya. Nididhysana is about cleaning up the jiva’s life. As the Self, you have nothing to clean up, no relationships because there is only you, a clean slate. When you know you are the Self all relationships are about love, nothing else. Nothing gives that to you or takes it away. It does not matter if you are in a relationship or not because all relationships are in you.
You say you are working on ‘the issues’, what does that translate to? Who is ‘working’ on the issue, and what is the issue? It sounds like there is only one issue causing dissatisfaction and keeping you stuck as the jiva and that is honesty. The jiva is not happy because it is not being honest with itself and then using the knowledge to try to side-step ‘the issue’ by ‘observing’ the jiva. But who is observing who? The ego observing the ego? You are going around in circles.
I know it is hard to know what to do in a situation like yours, I said this to you before. Your husband is a good person, and you are not that unhappy in your marriage. But you are not that happy either. You probably don’t want to hurt his feelings and you are not unhappy enough to face the upheaval of being alone. So you are stuck. Is the grass greener on the other side, what is the other side, does it matter? As I have said many times to inquirers and in the satsang you quote from above, the jiva may not be real, but self-inquiry requires ruthless self-honesty to work. There is no fine print to this. No one can advise you on the best course of action for the jiva, we can only remind you what self-inquiry entails, and you must apply it to your situation.
Mary: Thanks for your E-mail. I needed to read what you wrote in the first email. And I continue to read it and to think about it. It is so beautiful to see how you can see clearly the big picture and how you can express it with property. It is beautiful to see the Self showing itself, the Self shining without barriers. It is not an easy e-mail. I think I can almost understand what you are saying… I wrote some comments (with blue) in your email (below). Thanks so much for the answer.
Sundari: You actually do understand how the teachings relate to the jiva, but applying them is never easy as the unvarnished truth of nonduality is often so counter-intuitive and so uncompromising. It will take time for Self-knowledge to purify the mind and to strengthen some of the qualifications that need work.
Mary: Practice my way to satisfaction… When I read what you wrote… I see the waiting, the expectation, the desire. This is all in time and is an obstacle to satisfaction. Am I thinking wrong? There is desire and along with it the will to direct, to control, to determine the way to satisfaction. When I think about it, I see that this is not the perspective of Awareness, but the Jivas perspective.
Sundari: Yes, this was explained in my last email to you.
Mary: The problem is not the desire… The desire for moksa, the desire to be what I am – satisfied. The problem is the identification with the desire as a Jiva – I need this or that to be happy.
Sundari: It is true that the desire for moksa is not the problem. The problem is that the desire to ‘be who you are’ is not satisfied, as you claim it is. It is far from satisfied, because if it was, you would not have the dissatisfaction and doubts that you express in your emails. You would not have the problem of the identification with the jiva and its desires. As I said: “You cannot ‘practice’ your way to permanent satisfaction, but you must put self-inquiry into practice.” Are you doing this, are you applying karma yoga to the dissatisfaction?
Mary: How can one desire without identifying with the desire? What is a desire without attachment? Can I still call it desire? When I love my heart is warm and I overflow. I do not want to take anything for me, because I overflow. From the perspective of the Self, is desire possible?
Sundari: Desire without attachment is not desire as jivas understand desire because it is without fear. When jiva’s desire there is always an element of fear of loss, of not getting or keeping what you desire, of insecurity. Love as emotional security is not love because love is free of everything. Desire without attachment requires nothing because it is love loving itself. It is complete trust in Isvara. The Self has no desires because it is perfect and full. Desire belongs to mithya, to Isvara.
Even desire for moksa must be dropped for Self-actualization to take place. Before Self-knowledge obtains, an inquirer must withdraw the senses and consecrate all desires to Isvara, even the desire for moksa. Once Self-knowledge obtains, desire continues but is no longer a problem as there is no longer a ‘desirer’, a jiva. All desires are in line with dharma and it is known that nothing adds to or subtracts from the Self. So there are no bad results, no matter whether you get what you desire or not. It is immaterial.
Mary: Maybe I am seeing Moksa as an object, as something to be obtained, as something that will someday happen. I cannot understand or accept that it is still there. What I am is always there. Makes sense?
Sundari: Yes, it makes sense. Ignorance is very tenacious and subtle. It is fairly easy to assimilate the truth that you are the Self, but what that means for the jiva is not easy to put into practice minus a doer. Many sincere inquirers are still subtly trying to ‘do’ their way to the perfect experience of the Self, of perfect satisfaction. If you stick to your sadhana without deviating from it, follow the methodology to the letter, and put the teachings into practice, Self-knowledge will do the work. You have a say in what happens. If your desire for freedom is all-consuming and the other qualifications are in place, you will force Isvara to do your bidding, which will result in a permanent shift, which isn’t a “shift.”
Quote from Ramji: ‘The nididyasana stage only becomes relevant once the manana phase is finished. The manana phase is complete when the jiva is 100% convinced that it is whole and complete Existence shining as Consciousness, which is a “shift” from the misunderstanding that one is limited, inadequate and incomplete to the knowledge “I am whole and complete, adequate in every way.”
This shift ends the sadhana if there is a steady natural palpable current of bliss (ananda) and if everything that happens is handed over to Isvara, particularly the thought that I am a jiva doing sadhana and that I ever was a jiva doing sadhana.
The nididyasana phase is nothing but a sometimes long series of “shifts” as you dismiss the idea that you are a doer over and over, which is a remnant of root Ignorance. These innumerable shifts, which eventually become less frequent, are simply a noticeable change in perspective when you let go of the idea that you are a doer. To say Isvara is the doer means “I am the Self.” Isvara can’t be a doer because Isvara isn’t a big jiva with karma. It is just the beautiful intelligent ignorance that generates the appearance of action in you, actionless Awareness’.
Mary: It is so difficult… I feel the impulse to do something to make it possible. The mind is trying to grasp, to act: “how can I do my way to satisfaction…” And then I see that I do not renounce the one seeking perfect satisfaction, the doer, the story. I think: I want to understand how I can DO it… I am taking the responsibility for liberation as a Jiva, the doer.
Sundari: Yes, that is so. See above.
Mary: The problem involving my relationship… I can see that I am waiting for something to happen when I am single, “when I am free”… That I am waiting for a new and wonderful relationship for complete satisfaction. And I can see clearly that this is a recipe for frustration. But there is pressure inside of me to fulfill the desire. That is the point. I do not want to indulge this desire and it brings me pain. I am fighting against it. But I will also feel pain if I indulge it – sooner or later… The false expectations… That is what I really must leave, first of all. I think this is the point. The point is not the relationship, but the desire to have something else, to expect that something else will make me happy. I am looking for satisfaction in the wrong place…
Sundari: You have it right. If you are looking for satisfaction through the illusion of finding the perfect other, you will definitely not find it. Whether you stay or not in your current relationship is not the issue. But to decide to leave because you are dissatisfied and longing to fulfill the desire for love and excitement with someone else, you are heading straight for more bondage and suffering. The best thing you could do right now is to be honest with your husband and practice karma yoga on all decisions, whether you stay or leave. If you allow this desire to take the lead you are guaranteeing yourself more suffering
Mary: When I think about svadharma, I think through the Jiva´s perspective. The Jiva perspective – what is to be a woman, what is to be a wife. I am somehow attached, fixed to the roles I must play as a Jiva. I do not see the roles being played in me. I still cannot understand what looks like to see a role being played in me.
Sundari: You cannot see the roles being played because you are identified with the player. Your svadharma as a jiva only pertains to the jiva. There is no svadharma for the Self as it is itself, whole and complete, and always has been. The difficulty is in getting the life of the jiva in line with the scripture so that the mind is peaceful enough to conduct self-inquiry. For this, you need karma yoga and lots of it. I would advise forgetting about making any decisions right now, hand everything over to Isvara. You are confusing yourself unnecessarily. There are no solutions in mithya. Of course, it is your call.
Commit yourself to self-inquiry as your primary svadharma and forget about playing any role. Just be natural, be honest and trust the knowledge will bring you true nondual sight. Trust Isvara to show you the way, it is your only option if freedom from suffering is more important to you than your desires. But if your desires are too strong, it may be better to forget about self-inquiry for while and dive into them. Follow your desires until you are sick and tired of them. Let Maya teach you. It is the best teacher!
Mary: I practiced discrimination: I am not this, I am not that. But it will come a time when I will be able to see: this is me, this is also me… the desire is me, the pain is me… And seeing that everything is me, there would be no more the false idea of duality
Sundari: Yes, keep applying the teachings and discriminating until the discriminator is no longer necessary because Self-knowledge is permanent and the default position of the mind. It is not easy Mary, be patient. What price freedom from bondage?
Mary: I think I understand what you are saying. I see the division between the one who is telling the story and the Jiva. It looks like both are “alive”. In my mind I understood that the Jiva is an insentient object. That is the Self that gives life to the Jiva, it is the Self who tells the story. But I live as there were 2 Self’s – the jiva-ego and consciousness. Maybe the Self is still a concept, and the ego is taken as the one who lives tells the story. When the knowledge is firm, there would not be this apparent division, as you said before.
Sundari: Yes. As I said previously: ‘There is a qualitative difference between the mind watching the mind and the Self watching the mind. If it is the Self watching the mind there is no doer and no watcher of the doer. There is no separation between the Jiva and Self, they are known to be one and the same, minus the jiva narrative. The Self is not a knower in the sense that the jiva thinks of knowing because there is nothing for the Self to know. It ‘sees’ only itself. If there is an apparent jiva it is known to be just a mirage cooked up by Isvara.’
Mary: This is a tricky one… If there is a watcher of the doer, there are the watcher and the doer (ignorance)… There is duality…
Sundari: Correct. There is duality because you haven’t completed the manana phase of inquiry and you are looking at what happens as relevant to a jiva, when it is only relevant to Isvara. Failure to complete the manana phase is due to failure to complete the sravana phase, which is due to insufficient karma yoga. You need to go back and start from the beginning, ensure that the foundation for self-inquiry is strong and that you complete all the stages.
Mary: I think I understand the point that the Self is still identified with the ego, with the mind, but pretends to be watching the mind as if it takes the perspective of Self. It is difficult to understand how we can identify this problem… Who is watching??? Who is telling the story??? You said: If it is the Self watching the mind there is no doer and no watcher of the doer.
Sundari: Indeed. Is the ego watching the ego or the Self watching the ego watch the ego? It is not a difficult question. Ask yourself who is aware of the doubts and desires expressed in these emails? The doubts and desires don’t belong to that entity, which you seem to think is a “real” person named Mary. But there aren’t two entities. You don’t experience yourself as two entities. If you did you would have two or more of everything: two bodies, minds, karma streams, husband’s.. etc.
Much Love,
Sundari
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