Sundari: I took a while to reply to these two very long emails as much of your writing seems to be more ruminations than actual questions. I don’t know that you actually have any questions, though there are a few subtle points that come up. As usual, your writing and understanding are excellent, you know how to apply the teachings and do. There is nothing much more I can teach you beyond this.
C: I see this mind. It is like a tool. I cannot say that I am it – it thinks, produces imagery, turns, and churns and it used to feel as if tied up in a knot. The knot is gone, ever since I understood what is and what is not – nothing is not, doesn’t exist, and what is, is no-thing – me, as being, only as I am. ‘I’ can say I about that, but the word ‘I’, its meaning, doesn’t have a name per se, ‘because’ it has no form in the final round. Satya / Mitya, the two orders of the same reality.
Sundari: The I always refers to the Self, I Am is not a name. Any name for the Self will do as it is nameless. The two orders of reality are for teaching purposes because in truth there are no orders to a nondual reality. Mithya ‘becomes’ Satya when non-dual vision is permanent.
C: The mind was like a string tied up and for decades I tried to untie it, cut it, and so on; until one good day both ends were pulled and the whole issue disappeared. By expression it says, what is, is and what is not is not. Perhaps a very compacted thought, abstract to many – but I know what I mean with this.
Sundari: Self-knowledge is the ultimate Houdini. Nothing can bind the Self when Self-knowledge obtains, all the threads that tie the mind to mithya must unravel. The whole idea of ‘is and is not is’ is complicated and abstract to samsaris, but it is logical to the Self for whom the ever-changing show of mithya is but a dream appearing in you. You are right about non-existence not existing, but what do we mean by that, actually? If we look at the manifest world, we know that objects seem real but are not real because they are not always present and always changing. Only the knower of the objects, the Self, is always present and unchanging.
But the world of form clearly exists because we can experience it. Therein lies all the confusion. What to make of something that is and is not?? Because we know that the existence of objects is borrowed from Consciousness, me, the Self. We cannot in truth say nothing exists, the world does not exist. It is not possible because for something to not exist you would have to be there to prove it does not exist, which leaves you with only Existence, the knower of existence and non-existence, of is and is not.
C: Thank God – and thank jiva perhaps, for not giving up. It couldn’t give up, even if it wanted to do so. And you really helped to make clear the difference between a self-reflective mind and mind as a reflector of/for self. Purification is still in process – without making a religion out of this, stirring the horses of thought away from an ‘old’ meta-physical warfare, a kind of nihilistic sense, that still lingers. I think, relatively speaking, that this is a leftover from such a long ‘stand-off’ between jiva and ignorance. Not knowing was terrible. I couldn’t stand it. To be thrown into the world, having to go through the most painful and absurd situations, seeing the mess and being powerless about it; discouragement grew, even though this jiva has little fear, quite a double pack of juice, energy and happy, free and loving nature, unconcerned. Strange mixture of karma 🙂
Sundari: I can totally relate, as can any true seeker who has become a finder could relate. It seems amazing when one thinks about how complex, convincing, and cruel mithya can be, how relentless and misleading ignorance is, that anyone survives it at all. When you think about it, anyone deluded by duality has mental health problems, walking the tightrope between sanity and insanity, between dharma and adharma. We are indeed blessed to have the punya karma to have found Vedanta and the means to end the madness once and for all.
C: I still think – at times – that Isvara came very late with James’ book. The existential question riddled me so much that many normal and sensible choices never were made, with the result that I ended up with nothing. No normal house, no wife, no kids – and I don’t care about that. So that is fine – I have a workaholic in me and am no longer bothered by all kinds of relations that I believed were supposed to work but didn’t. Nothing to blame or cry over.
This is harder to say about sustaining my bank account, so the idea that Isvara dishes out results and takes care of ones getting and keeping – it does, in strange ways often – for example, my car broke some weeks ago and somehow, I managed to pay for that. It is always edgy which is tiring. So, I go through loopholes just to pay the rent, feed the dog and me, etc. Not much wiggle room, but, on the other hand, I hardly have the problems many have in comparison. I need virtually nothing; just some tools to work, a car and some clothes.
Sundari: We get the karma due to us, as tough as that may be to understand at times. Isvara has always provided for your needs and always will. The thing is to choose a simple life, and you have that, good for you. It is not easy to drop all the usual expectations that society places on us, even though they don’t work for most people. I think most Vedantins have had the issue of being out of step with the tribe to some degree, of bucking the system; James and I certainly did growing up. We march to the tune of a different drummer, and nothing could deter us.
C: Not making a living, a life by means of sculpture doesn’t seem fair because it is the only thing I seem to understand well; to my jiva experience, that is. All other stuff – less so…
Sundari: Who knows why things work the way they do? And what does ‘not fair’ mean? The thing to realize is that only in surrendering to Isvara does life work for us, even when we are not getting what we like or want. If we can worship our fate, amor fati is the beautiful Latin term for it, we live like God because we are God, regardless of whether the jiva gets what it wants or not. On the other hand, if we don’t take the appropriate actions and the risks associated with achieving a desire, then we are not very likely to get what we want. There is nothing wrong with desires that are not contrary to dharma. If it is your svadharma to be an artist and make a living from it, then do what it takes. I did that, I stuck with my svadharma as an artist until it paid off, but it was not easy. There was much risk involved, and financial insecurity, it goes with the territory of being an artist.
C: I take care of my words and speech because I noticed that I scare people if I don’t and help them if I remain a bit diffused. My mind translated a lot of ideas, meanings, symbolism to logic and vice versa, internally and culturally, and now has quite a good grasp of the western mind and mind in general – my mind just did that, whatever circumstance I was in physically – on the move, mostly, living or going here and there, over 25 years, like a nomad but studying, inquiring – thinking through, slow long thoughts and quick apprehensions; whatever was useful – and halted the bombardment of too much insight.
Sundari: Cultivating sama and dama (control of mind and the sense organs, including speech) are not only important qualifications for self-inquiry, but they are also vital to a peaceful life. Egos are incredibly sensitive and need to be handled with care. Self-knowledge is the ultimate education for the mind, it expands it beyond any borders it once believed in, dropping all beliefs and making it fluid and malleable to whatever is playing out in the guna field. Subjective worldly knowledge while still important for the jiva, pales in significance to Self-knowledge.
C: What to make of all that? ‘Seems’ must be the operator here; it is fair, probably. I simply believe this because I cannot see why it has to be this way and I couldn’t simply dismiss it as a mere dislike or FyFy it out. Neither did I want to become an academic scholar. Unless as a leading error – as everything can be a leading error in maya. The oddity of not doing what I do best and doing what I do less best, is not a cool life experience. It requires action different from instinct or first impulse. But then again, to paint and build as a ‘normal’ working person is just fine, nothing wrong with that inherently. At the end of the day, I find the money issues the most irritating – fumbling at some existential feelings. Tiring.
Sundari: Everything in mithya is a leading error until Self-knowledge is firm. Then it does not matter much what the jiva does. Again, what does ‘fair’ mean? Isvara is not a pervert whimsically denying or rewarding us. Perhaps you need more faith in your ability as an artist? If you want to make your living as an artist, just do it. With karma yoga. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a simple life of building and painting houses. What’s the difference? James fixed and painted houses for years to support himself financially while teaching Vedanta. He did so knowing that he had the mind and the talents to go far in business or academia, as well as being a natural artist.
It was only when that kind of physical labour got to be too much that he stopped. His whole life has pretty much always been dedicated to serving Isvara in the best way possible, and he was quite willing to forego the trappings of bourgeois life to do so. Many inquirers are not prepared to sacrifice their likes and dislikes when it comes right down to it, though they want the rewards of a ‘spiritual’ or alternative life. See whatever you do as worshipping Isvara and make peace with it.
C: Which – if I don’t take care, ends up in negative tamas, because it is such a stupid issue. Tamas in itself is not a problem, neutral, useful for certain things – like you said, rajas/tamas dynamic. There the doubt lingers – a jiva, with a limited prisonlike sense of never getting it right; I aimed for a sattvic life, of which much failed, however trivial it is also. I have a very devoted jiva here and I also experienced a very draining discouragement; and stepped out of the psychology of it.
Sundari: What does it mean to fail? I disagree that you failed at a sattvic life because life happens in the mind, not in action. Your life circumstances may not be as sattvic as you would like, but as you know who you are, sattva is your nature by default, as well as an object known to you. You are the Self regardless of what guna is playing out for the jiva. If the jiva is in a prison of never ‘getting it right’, perhaps you need to address who it is that feels nothing is right, the one who feels its karma is unfair? Maybe you were just really tired and tamasic writing this because I know you don’t believe it.
Perhaps a recap on karma yoga would be helpful here, as it may be your only problem is a (temporary) attitude problem, not a knowledge problem. The right attitude is not a path. It is a commitment. Karma yoga is not a path. It is a life committed 100% to performing action as yoga, and to loving whatever Isvara dishes out to us. It takes skill to perform action with the right attitude, which is doing what is to be done, whether you like it or not, thus likes and dislikes, how I feel about the situation, do not come into play.
I know you know that likes and dislikes often prompt one to think thoughts or perform actions that are not conducive to peace of mind. A karma yogi negates negative/agitating thoughts and refrains from performing adharmic actions because not only is not proper for them to do so as a dedicated inquirer, but they also understand there is nothing to gain from it, and much precious peace of mind to lose. Performing actions in harmony with the natural order (dharmic actions) and avoiding actions that disturb the order (adharmic actions) is karma yoga. Sometimes the natural order is to our liking, and sometimes, it’s not. It’s not a problem either way, for the Self.
Sameness of mind towards good or bad karma or success and failure with respect to karma/action is another definition of yoga. When karma or a result is looked upon as a success, attachment arises, and when it is looked upon as failure aversion arises. In fact, there is no such thing as success and failure. Every karma/result is in accordance with the laws of action. These laws are not made by anybody; they are made by the dharma field or Isvara, so they can never go wrong.
Action never really fails; it only produces results. There are no bad results, just results. A given expectation may be said to have failed (such as ‘why can’t I make my living from what I love doing as an artist’), but the one with the expectation has not failed. That I have failed or that the action has failed is the wrong conclusion – only the expectation is the problem. Even when we make a mistake, make a bad judgment call, fail to take appropriate action, or break dharma, who is that made a mistake, failed to act, or broke dharma? It’s not the Self and it’s not the jiva either; it’s just ignorance. Blame Isvara if it helps!
So, nobody fails, even if you think that you are a person. It is only a matter of wrong judgment because we are not omniscient, and we cannot have the knowledge of all the factors that shape our karma, or the results of our actions. Everything boils down to Isvara, the gunas. Self-knowledge gives us the tools to deal with every situation as it arises and to live a happy, independent, life, free of the jiva program. A life lived in this way means that every result is the right result. The more you appreciate the laws, the more you are in harmony with the things around and you can find your place in the scheme of things.
Another definition of karma yoga is an attitude of gratitude, a loving consecration of one’s actions based on the understanding that life is a great gift that requires reciprocation. Never forget gratitude, especially when you are tempted to think that life is unfair! Failure to appreciate this fact results in low self-esteem, the feeling that “I am a failure.” You are familiar with this. Of course, you would prefer to make money from doing what you love, your art. But if it does not sell, or you don’t want to do what it takes to go down that path, then do what is in front of you with gratitude.
C: I have a plan of action – so far so good – and it seems part and parcel of sadhana. Knowledge and action do go hand in hand; it’s not a real difference.
Sundari: It’s good to have a plan of action for the jiva, as long as that plan and the doer are surrendered to Isvara. Knowledge and action do go together of course, but it depends on what you are after, what you mean by knowledge, and who is taking action. No action taken by a limited entity, a doer, can produce a limitless result. The difference is that Self-knowledge is limitless, it is unlike any other knowledge, being that which is always present, free of action, and always good.
C: I am not sure what to think about life, sometimes I feel like death is a release – and at the same time, death/life; what’s the difference? Only the earthly experience, it seems. I have no clue what I am doing here, per se, so I stopped thinking about that. Or what I am doing here is Vedanta and paint, some carpentry, and keep the peace – I don’t care where I live or what I do – as long as it is simple and straightforward.
Sundari: Who are you referring to when you say you have no clue what you are doing here? You, the Self, are not here, there, or anywhere yet there is nowhere that you are not. What is ‘here’ but an idea appearing in you, Awareness? You are not born, so how can you die? You are not here to ‘do’ Vedanta or keep the peace because you are Vedanta, and you are peace. What the jiva does is irrelevant, really, except that to have a good and satisfying life it needs to follow dharma, both personal and universal.
C: I watched some of a yogi called Sadhguru (you know him?) and he created a dhyanalinga. This is going to sound strange, I do not mean to generate import here, but a year ago, or so, I woke up and heard ‘ hello Jagatta ‘ – (I have a weird name, my father’s idea, and never felt much attachment to it), so I said ‘hello’ back and smiled – feeling like I have no name, to begin with, so it was just very funny 🙂 But the name, or word, sounded familiar, and looked it up; and Jagad means cosmos. Then, much later someone mentioned this yogi and so saw what temple he had built. I don’t understand it, and I am not a yogi in that sense – but I thought of making something like that, it inspired me to make a mini dhyanalinga, so to use the form aspect that is so present in my brain.
In fact, I will make a mini temple and follow your advice on this, more seriously than I did so far. A place of worship, consecration. It is good to be devoted and I want to restore, let’s say, that sense or rather give it a clearer direction, a place, a small cosmos. For some reason, all this hangs together by association, but I enjoy the idea and so I will slowly make a mini temple. It gives my doer something outside of doing worldly stuff – it simply likes doing anyway – simply because too much thought can also become a mental trip ending in a trap.
Sundari: Great idea. Whatever inspires is good, especially if it helps your devotional practice. Jiva Jagad Isvara makes up the phenomenal world of experience, the dharmafield, and their common identity is you, Awareness. Anything that symbolizes this for you is good because everything refers back to the Self.
I know about Sadguru, not much apart from the fact that he offers inspirational spiritual statements, no teaching, really. He is big in India, is very wealthy, an environmentalist currently riding a motorbike from London to India to raise awareness about soil quality. A good guy basically.
C: The self-platform and jiva-platform switches, sometimes from one moment to the next – for ‘reasons’ I don’t understand precisely, but ok, I do know what to do/not do, and the difference makes me clear that the subject/object hasn’t dissolved completely. It isn’t me nor jiva but the knowledge at work, it seems, because I can’t say that I do it, neither of the me’s 🙂
Sundari: There are not two ‘me’s’ because this is a non-dual reality. The whole point of Self-knowledge is the understanding that all is you, the Self, even the apparently real conceptual jiva, small self jiva. When you know you are the Self, but the knowledge is not firm, ignorance can still stand in the way of the appreciation of this fact. The jiva program, ignorance, can temporarily obscure Self-knowledge. So yes, ‘switching’ perspectives from Self to jiva still occurs. But it is usually short-lived because once you know who you are you cannot forget. Though it is possible to slide back into ignorance if binding vasanas are not cleaned up and jnana yoga and karma yoga are not constant practices.
C: But ‘something is doing’; that must be Isvara then, as a reminder almost – which in some sense is me too. I tend to think about objects, qualities, but also see that they are not precisely ‘objects’. Perhaps jiva is self and without binding vasanas is am as am, clear.
Sundari: Jiva is the Self, I Am. Can only be. There is only one ‘doer’ and that is Isvara, though Isvara is only a doer with reference to the jiva. We have been through this. Of course, doing ‘happens; by virtue of the Self, though Self is not a doer either. Doing happens or seems to happen thanks to Maya.
C: No fine print… I thought about that some time ago and realized; if there is no fine print then this must be good, actually, for it isn’t necessary – in fact that would be impossible. Or, from another angle, the fine print, the grindyness, is not real. A bit of surplus and less trouble will make life easier, nonetheless, so … well, a thought is that it is already non-existent and only jiva had enough of the movie – but has to go through until that’s done, kind of but not really. Here then, I see no objects, there is only the subject, or non-material-ness, etc. On a clear day, it is Me, on a less clear day it is jiva – and all the combinations happen. Internal drizzle – I could recognize much from a recent satsang with Jason on this. Serious inquiry is good – to be worried not so; the worry I cancel, there fyfy works very well.
Sundari: Good, glad you got that. How does worry help? It’s just a product of rajas and tamas, worry is the most useless emotion and a sure sign that the jiva program is operational. Keep negating it whenever it pops up. Most of the things the jiva worries about never happen anyway. The Self is NEVER worried about anything.
C: The troubling circumstances aren’t over – it will take a lot of time and effort, so that keeps me busy. Besides, who knows what Isvara has in store; inflation, another stupid war, people are still hungry, oppressed, suffer from this and that – and I have my shit. It isn’t easy to understand, accept, that Isvara is both dharma and adharma – although it is easy, it is a movie and that is easy to see.
Sundari: Who has the shit? The mithya world will always have problems, it is the nature of ignorance, there is absolutely nothing new here. A beginningless story as old as time that only ends with Self-knowledge. Mithya is a polarity, so there must be dharma and adharma to keep the show on the road, so to speak. The only solution is to see none of it as real and not make more problems out of the jiva’s problems.
C: There is always something to dislike, I think. It is like that – although I don’t feel much desire, except for peace of mind, clear and forever. For this I do wish to have a life less ‘material’ let’s say, less survival – I can imagine this jiva sitting on the banks of the Ganges. But I also know that any form may be and doesn’t change a damn thing; Vedanta shows, and so the river here, literally behind a dyke where I live, is my Ganges, just the same.
Sundari: Nowhere you are not, nowhere to go, it’s all good. The Ganges is just a symbol for you, the Self, and any symbol will do.
C: I believe that in a few months, maybe weeks even, my mind will clear up some more – it did so the last few weeks in ways hard to describe, for the better and in spite of the seeming harshness of empirical/psychological waking state stuff, karma’s. My jiva can hate Isvara as much as he ‘wants’; quite twisted but love anyway – and not that deep, just an oddly wired temperament 🙂 It is good to see the zero-sum and also; milk does become butter, there is a transformation of sorts – an irreversible-ness, the hook of sattva, fishing out the fish. Faith makes sense in that way.
Sundari: Isvara does not mind being hated, it’s not a person; it’s just you the Self appearing as an apparent creator. And hate is love in a negative form anyway. Milk does become butter, true. This process cannot be reversed in mithya, it is permanent. If you buy into the creation, you are stuck with the zero-sum nature of duality, and faith in something may help you deal with that. To understand how this reality functions, it is important to assimilate the difference between permanent change and vivarta parinama, apparent change, where Consciousness seems to appear as the material creation, the world of name and form, but never enters it. Consciousness, being non-dual and therefore incapable of change, never actually becomes the creation because if it did, its nature as Consciousness would no longer be non-dual and there would thus be no way out of duality. So, for the Self, there is no zero-sum, only the one indivisible, inseparable, whole, and complete Consciousness. And you are it.
C: On one level no guna defines experience, it never did/does, and at another, it conjures up nothing but experiences. Mostly I refrain from having an opinion – it’s endless. I thought/felt, in spite of hardship, existence cannot actually be a ‘problem’. I didn’t agree with life being ‘dukka’ – so fuck it, God or no God … So, that is some aggressive rajasic ‘demon’ inside that wants to be cleansed, free, etc., or something like that, at any rate, it aimed for sattva – thank God for the humour of this!
Sundari: Life is one long experience, from womb to tomb, for the experiencing entity. The point is, are you the experiencing entity or the non-experiencing knower of said entity? You can’t be both. It’s ok to have opinions if you hold them lightly and with a lot of humour! Be prepared to let them go at the drop of a hat, always. The ‘demon inside’ is just beginningless ignorance, all jivas share it, and it is only a problem when you do not know what it is. When you do and discrimination is automatic and permanent, you can enjoy the demon or its opposite, the angel, for what it has to offer, even the so-called ‘bad stuff’. It all resolves in you anyway.
C: Here I have a question, but I can’t formulate it, yet – something to do with pleasure. I don’t chase it, or not consciously, but without joy, life doesn’t work either.
Sundari: Pleasure and pain are woven fine in mithya, neither can be avoided without consequences. There is nothing wrong with pleasure if you know you do not need to chase it. As Buddha said: treat pleasure like licking honey off a blade, with great care. The only real, permanent, and true pleasure is the perfect satisfaction of the Self.
C: Ok, life is a movie, I can tell, testify to that- but in honesty, I should say ‘almost’. Nonetheless, my eyes do not bring information or evidence that it is real. Seeing itself is not real – or any sense perception. You say something here in a way I don’t seem to understand well. Do you mean, here, non-creation? – I spent a lot of time on ‘what is (this) creation?’ and thought through/experienced ‘creative-ness’. Yet it isn’t – that I do get.
Mithya ‘not being a place’ … that really does it, very much like the non-creation teaching. That always works and makes me happy too 🙂 Free (from personal projection).
Sundari: Creation is a non-creation; it exists because you can experience it, but it is not real as in always present and never changing. It is as good as non-existent, the placeless place.
C: The very fact that Isvara is also adharma is sometimes hard to accept – it seems to bring back jiva all too easily, I don’t know why, and I don’t allow it; it creeps up, ignorance, I mean. Yet not that hard, strangely enough; as if I have no adharma within, just the same. Perhaps I mix up Isvara and jiva, giving me a hard time, beyond comprehension.
Sundari: Isvara and jiva are the same apart from their capacity to create, neither are real with reference to Awareness. Isvara in the role of the creator must be both dharma and adharma because if it were not there would be no dharmafield for the jiva to work out its karma. That is the nature of duality.
C: Yes, I tried to understand Mithya, ha ! … an endless go – well, I ended up ‘in’ space – one element, out of five not a bad score for a jiva 🙂 After that Vedanta came. I have had mysterious/mystical experiences, they counted for something, in terms of meaning, maybe, but yes, I see also people who love the mystics to escape the asphalt, taxes and all that worldly stuff and so believe ‘in the light’ with a notion that reasoning doesn’t work. In part, that is because good reasoning isn’t appreciated in this culture and can be difficult. I see smart people thinking that they are stupid… and vice versa.
Sundari: Maya is a great wonder indeed! So true, most spiritual types are looking for an escape from the grinding nature of Maya, by whatever means. They tend to see reasoning, thinking, as the antitheses of ‘getting it’, which is supposed to happen by some mysterious ‘heart opening’ induced by proscribed actions such as meditation or some such ‘spiritual’ activity. Good luck with that. For Self-knowledge to work, it needs a valid independent means, and stupid/smart people without qualifications for self-inquiry just won’t get it even if they stumble upon it.
C: No wonder jiva cannot understand itself either. Sometimes I dream and know that I dream. To say that about the waking state is much harder until it isn’t. Taking the experience of life as action, karma, and churning, from milk to butter as inevitable, I trust that I still have to purify some more, and it doesn’t seem to be a matter of knowing more. ‘More’ is not the right word … It is not about time/ kalpa. Or if, then about ending it.
Sundari: The jiva can only ever have a relative understanding of itself without Self-knowledge. Purification of identification with the jiva program continues until it is no longer necessary because the jiva is as good as non-existent. What’s to purify if you are the Self?
C: It must be that self cannot ever be confused, but is, temporarily; seemingly. etc. the moment mithya comes along; making oneself believe it is a jiva among many – well, I’ve been working hard, and am a bit tired. I better finish these thoughts later on.
Sundari: The Self under the spell of ignorance can seemingly be confused if the jiva program is operational. But of course, the Self never is confused and never really under the spell of ignorance. It’s all a big con!
C: It’s like one foot is out of samsara, finally, with the knowledge that it, I, was never in samsara in the first place. The other foot still drags in samsara – no longer stuck, but neither out. I don’t know how to earn grace, but I feel it anyway.
Thank you Sundari, a million times – it isn’t easy, but it is great.
Sundari: You can’t earn grace unless you think you are a jiva doing actions. You are grace. Though inquiry can be tough until both feet are planted firmly on the Self and samsara is over for you, what else is there to do that is truly worthwhile? You are on your way, and you are the journey and the destination. Keep going, you are doing great, and you are most welcome.
Much love
Sundari